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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 13:52:39 GMT
So many mistakes made in the last 30 years since the ending of the Cold War. The West (mainly the USA) assumed averyone wanted a western style democracy but some nations or communities have never experienced that and did not want an immediate change from oppression of one style to that of another - because democracy is the oppression of the majority over the minority; it's just that the numbers separating them are usually fairly small.
This leads to extremism, of which the most recent is radical Islam, as befriended by the loony Left; neither of whom want democracy of course.
The maddening thing is that without external influence (either from the Evangelstic right in the USA supporting the Israeli right wing or Iran supporting Hamas and Hizbollah) the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could be well on the way to resolution. But that doesn't help those who wish to continue the conflict for their own nefarious reasons.
Still struggling with a decision although I may visit the hustings on Thursday to listen to the Liberal woman. Can't do any harm.
At the end of the day, a famous Rabbi once said (and is repeated daily) about some poltical event: - "Is it good for the Jews?". If any decision is either good for the Jews or at least doesn't harm them, then generally the whole nation will be fine. If not, then the whole nation will suffer. Just like you treat a person according to the company he keeps, you consider a country according to how it treats its minorities. Since Oliver Cromwell's time, when Jews were permitted to return to England, we have felt pretty safe and gradually as other minorities have arrived we have felt part of the fabric of society. I think that fabric is starting to unravel and I don't think that is down to the right wing as much as the left wing who have clearly favoured some minorities over others.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 19:57:01 GMT
I don't know what the cause is, but despite living in a society which in general is more forgiving of people who are of different sexual orientations, of differing religions, ethnicities etc etc (and quite rightly) we also seem to be witnessing a rise in all forms of attacks and abuse of these same people. This case is in some ways a typical example Attack on Bus which must have been horrific. Why would these boys do such a thing? What examples were they shown that they thought this was acceptable? Is it the 'me' generation such that only I matter? If so, why has this occurred? Is it politics, social media with an increasing desire of people to be famous for being famous; i.e. make lots of money without working too hard, or simply that as a society which was very deferential to the higher classes has levelled off and with that, it has gone too far such that you don't care about anyone else at all?
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bobby
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Post by bobby on Dec 2, 2019 22:39:44 GMT
I am reading this, quite staggered, that your vote is being based purely on the fact that you are Jewish and your perception on how others feel about you.
Living in UK, do you not take into account many of the hundreds of other reasons to consider before you vote?
Economy, poverty, homelessness, crime, police resources, Brexit, NHS, education, income tax, tax dodgers, etc etc etc. But your primary motivation for voting is your background? You would quite happily vote to have Boris in, a party that is making the division in society bigger? Making the poor poorer and the rich richer? A man who has been caught out lying constantly. A man who has stated derogatory remarks about homosexuals, people of ethnic origins, people who follow certain religions. But that sits fine with you as long as you can blame Labour for eggs being thrown at a car? Do you not realise that in doing all this you may actually be bringing on these feeling towards Jews?
I am a Scottish Catholic. I need to live with the highest amount of the anti catholic orange walks (more than in Belfast). There are all sorts of anti catholic stauff in our society. There is all sorts of anti Scottish stuff as well. But you know something, I would prefer not to see folk having to live in the street, have to visit foodbanks. I would like crime to be reduced by increasing our police resources. I would like more resource to be put into our NHS and to ensure its safe from privatisation. I would like more equal distribution of wealth. And I dont want Brexit.
But your main driving force is your perception of how a party sees your faith? How does this sit with your faith and background that you are happy for a party to be voted in which alienates many parts of our society?
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Dec 3, 2019 11:15:04 GMT
I think I'm nailed on for a tactical vote, for the first time ever. Can't countenance a Tory majority under Johnson/Raab/Patel/Cleverly etc, and there's a risk of a Tory winning in my marginal. Must do whatever I can to stop that. I am effectively voting for a hung Parliament, in the hope that Corbyn stands aside for Starmer as part of a three-way Lab/Lib/SNP coalition agreement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 15:31:19 GMT
Bobby
I am not sure how to reply but if you walked in my shoes on most Saturdays, you would understand. Nothing more to say.
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Post by bromptonaut on Dec 3, 2019 17:59:12 GMT
Bobby I am not sure how to reply but if you walked in my shoes on most Saturdays, you would understand. Nothing more to say. I understand the stuff that's happening. As I said upthread there's open aggression about now affecting minorities in a way that used to happen pre-eighties. It's not just Jews the Muslims suffer it too as did those two women picked on on a night bus fort nothing more than being a couple. It's stuff we thought was gone but was hidden under a stone that has been lifted by nut jobs. In UK I think they feel themselves legitimised by Brexit. In US it's Trump and his supporters. Elsewhere in Europe there are outfits like AfD and Salnvini; the bargain basement Mussolini who was in Italy's government. What I cannot rationalise is how Labour, whatever has gone on in its own ranks, gets blame for stuff on the streets.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 3, 2019 18:57:07 GMT
I think a lot of 'stuff' the thought was long gone wasn't and Brexit makes these unpleasant people think it's okay to share their opinions and views again. All the more reason for me to want to leave the UK to live somewhere else - I just hope it's possible after Brexit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 23:31:55 GMT
What I cannot rationalise is how Labour, whatever has gone on in its own ranks, gets blame for stuff on the streets. So it's got nothing to do with Labour PPCs and activists ranting about "mass murdering Rothschilds" and "Israel has no right to exist" amongst other offensive posts on social media? Silly me.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Dec 4, 2019 8:33:35 GMT
Oh dear, we seem to have lost EIII over this. That's a great shame.
What a terrible indictment of the atmosphere in this country right now. Truly sickening.
In other truly sickening news, have you seen that the government have sent bills for £2k each to the families of the Vietnamese people who died in that lorry? Presumably sanctioned by one Dominic Raab?
We must get shot of these awful people, we've got to start to turn the tide. Sadly, that seems an impossible task with Labour's connivance in escalated racism, nationalism 9which can be a phenomenon of both right and left) and tensions. I feel I need to vote Labour where I live in order to stop the (worse) Tory, but morally I am utterly sickened at the prospect. I am genuinely torn.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 4, 2019 9:30:07 GMT
It is a great shame that EIII has decided to delete his account. I think the regulars on here fully understand his position. I really don't want Corbyn's form of labour to get anywhere near to being in power. And neither do I want the conservatives.
Our MP has been labour with a big majority but even the outgoing ex-labour (now independent) MP urges people to vote Lib Dem.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Dec 4, 2019 9:32:58 GMT
If they can win in your constituency, do vote LibDem (notwithstanding significant imperfections). All evidence in mine says they can't.
This electoral system needs an enema.
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Avant
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Post by Avant on Dec 4, 2019 15:00:17 GMT
Yes, we'll all miss Espada, who seemed like a friend even though we've never met him in person.
I think we have to be sensitive here and accept that someone whose religion has been subject to abuse for centuries is bound to feel deeply about it - to the extent that it might indeed affect the way he votes. Even I (as a C of E organist) feel that a man who is so weak and indecisive (although probably not himself anti-Semitic) that he can't bring himself to expel anti-Semites in his party is simply not fit to be Prime Minister.
I say that as a centrist, not a Tory. I agree broadly with what Bobby says about Boris: the problem is that I can see no evidence that Labour's unaffordable promises will make a difference to the ills in socety that Bobby rightly mentions. I know Tony Blair got it badly wrng over Iraq (the Conservatives would have done the same): but he would have given us a better, more balanced government than anything that's currently on offer.
Humph, if you see this - as moderator and peacemaker who presumably have his Email address, would it be an idea if you get in touch with Espada and encourage him to stay with us?
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Post by Humph on Dec 4, 2019 15:10:27 GMT
Ahead of you, leave it with me...
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Post by bromptonaut on Dec 6, 2019 15:51:58 GMT
So it's got nothing to do with Labour PPCs and activists ranting about "mass murdering Rothschilds" and "Israel has no right to exist" amongst other offensive posts on social media? Silly me. Kevin, Have you experienced any of this stuff yourself? Accepting those quotes as genuine I'm still not getting idea that people who engage in bashing/baiting of Jews are taking their cue from Labour's fringe Twitterati. Much more likely it's driven by same emboldening effect as in those picking on other minorities and that perps are on Britain First/EDL etc end of spectrum. If there's evidence of something else then I'd like to see it. As already stated (apparent) correlation is not causation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 20:34:54 GMT
So it's got nothing to do with Labour PPCs and activists ranting about "mass murdering Rothschilds" and "Israel has no right to exist" amongst other offensive posts on social media? Silly me. Kevin, Have you experienced any of this stuff yourself? Accepting those quotes as genuine I'm still not getting idea that people who engage in bashing/baiting of Jews are taking their cue from Labour's fringe Twitterati. Much more likely it's driven by same emboldening effect as in those picking on other minorities and that perps are on Britain First/EDL etc end of spectrum. If there's evidence of something else then I'd like to see it. As already stated (apparent) correlation is not causation. Bromp, I fail to see what my own experience has to do with anti-semitism in the Labour party, but to indulge you: I am a Pastafarian so anti-semitism is not a direct threat to me. Does it still bother me? Yes it bloody well does. Have I experienced threats myself before? Yes, I lived in South West Africa before the fall of apartheid and was threatened and had my car vandalised by the local AWB (remember Terreblanche?) for being "A soutpiel getting too friendly with the kaffirs". Trivial but unpleasant. And how much more evidence do you need before you take off the blinkers and stop singing your Labour Can't do Any Wrong mantra. I have already given you a link to reports that those posts were not from right wing thugs like EDL or what you flippantly describe as "Labour's fringe Twitterati". They were posts made by Labour Prospective Parliamentary Candidates FFS. Candidates who Corbyn was happy to have alongside him on stage when he unveiled his Race and Faith Manifesto.
Political parties age-old tactics of "deny and distract" doesn't work anymore because they can't cover their internet spoor. Jewish people in the UK have a very valid reason to be nervous of Corbyn and the Labour party. Hate crime is not the sole domain of the right. Knuckle draggers come from both end of the political spectrum and you coming from a working class Yorkshire background already know that despite your denials.
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