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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 14:34:25 GMT
Election 2017:
Labour 27000 Tory 23000 LibDem 3500.
Honest question: What would you do? Because I'm damned if I'm going to wake up on Dec 13 and find our horrible Tory candidate is grinning like a cat.
Of course I want to vote LibDem, I've paid my members fees and I've even been offered a shot at my local ward seat in next year's local elections.
But I can't see us winning this Westminster seat, this time. It's too big an ask. Our candidate is weak, is from outside the constituency, nobody's ever heard of her and there's no campaign resources on the ground apart form the leaflets I've been delivering. So I have to consider tactical voting. As I said, it would be a far, far easier choice if my house was 500 yards away from where it is now as the Lib/Lab situation is reversed. My constituency contains some massive council estates and loads of urban terraces, also lots of students. Next door doesn't, as you know.
I'm trying to rationalise a Labour vote in my constituency as a vote for a hung Parliament this time, as the best thing I can hope for. There is some truth in that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 15:03:22 GMT
Our independent MP is standing and he is hoping to pick up a large proportion on the Jewish vote in the constituency.
However the proportion of Jews in the constituency is probably only about 10% to 15% and that is not enough to sway the vote in any particular direction.
The Labour candidate is a member of Momentum and therefore will not gain any votes from the Jewish community or the large number of their local supporters. Those people will probably support the incumbent, and talking amongst friends of mine there is a big split between those who will vote for him because he is now not Labour and those who feel that they vote for him will let Labour in.
That leaves the Lib Dems and Conservatives. There is not a huge following for the Lib Dems as far as I can tell and the result will probably end up on 3-way split between Labour, Conservative and independent.
My wife is definitely voting conservative as are my two sons but I have still not made a decision.
My only choice is Tory or Independent.
Interestingly I was walking past someone BT engineers earlier this week chatting to them that Labour's plans for free broadband for everyone. They rolled their eyes explaining that Labour would not get in if they had anything to do with it.
Maybe there is hope.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 21, 2019 15:04:33 GMT
2017 was an odd election anyway, and too much has happened since for it to be a good guide to this one. Lib Dems then were still in the post-coalition doldrums, while Labour mopped up the anti-Tory vote, even in Henley. Meanwhile moderate Tory voters (yes, there used to be such creatures) stayed loyal to Theresa May in the hope of strength and stability. We know how that ended.
This time the Lib Dems stand to catch most of those who are disgusted enough with Johnson to desert the Tories, which makes them the best bet in ‘safe’ Tory seats like Wokingham— where one Survation poll had them at 38 percent to Redwood’s 42. But I’d still vote Labour in Reading.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 15:12:24 GMT
Yes, your first point is a good one, but all the tactical voting analysis I've seen recommends a Lab vote in Reading still, both constituencies.
Heart or head for me. It's most annoying, all my surrounding seats I'd be LibDem without any equivocation. If I vote Labour it's in the hope that an habitual Labour voter in a Lib/Tory marginal is going to vote LibDem and deliver a new MP for us there, and in the hope that Labour won't in an overall majority.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 21, 2019 15:13:02 GMT
The Labour broadband plan isn’t as mad as all that. If we consider internet access to be a necessity of modern life and, unlike water or electricity, not something that really costs more to deliver the more any one household uses it, then why not have a flat-rate, good-enough service for everybody? Government purchasing power ought to reduce the cost per household, which we’d just pay through our taxes rather than our telephone bill. There could still be Eton or BUPA broadband for those who simply must have something superior, but most people would be happy with something fast that works.
BT pays its engineers to dig holes well and fill them in badly, not to consider economies of scale or the hazards of social exclusion. I wouldn’t consider them experts in this field.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 15:15:45 GMT
EIII, any chance you can convince your loved ones of the error of their ways? Honestly, 5 more years of the Tories under Johnson and I really fear for our society and democracy. I just can't get my head around anyone voting for it, and yet here we are, they are still over 40% in the polls.
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Post by Humph on Nov 21, 2019 15:52:29 GMT
Tough call here too. Our constituency was a long term Labour stronghold under Gwyneth Dunwoody until her death in 2008. She was succeeded by a Tory, Edward Timpson ( he of the shoe repair family )
In 2017 it reverted to Labour by a margin of only 48 votes I think. Both the new Tory candidate and the incumbent Labour MP are strongly in favour of Brexit, as indeed it would seem, are a majority of the local public. ( Christ knows why when one of the biggest employers is Bentley which is of course German owned )
Lib Dems were nowhere in 2017 so it's really hard to see how to best excercise the pencil.
I think it's going to have to be a follow the heart thing.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 21, 2019 16:38:57 GMT
You have at least got a true Red-Blue marginal there, Humph. And Laura Smith has voted with the Remain side on occasion, and might do so again as the Labour position becomes clear. (Hard to believe I still have to say that, three years on.) You can be pretty sure your new Tory won’t do that, so I think the tactical advice, to vote with the candidate most likely to (a) get into parliament and (b) vote the right way once there points to Labour in your case.
Any amount of nose-holding is perfectly permissible at this election. We’re in a ghastly situation and must do what it takes to keep it from getting worse.
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Post by Humph on Nov 21, 2019 16:56:23 GMT
It does come to a pretty pass when we have to decide on who is the "least worst" choice rather than the best though doesn't it?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 21, 2019 17:21:02 GMT
That’s pretty much the essence of politics. In this country it’s compounded by an electoral system devised when it was Whigs, Tories and, erm, nobody else. This, of course, suits the two major parties, who can lock out the rest without actually needing to beat them or have better ideas. An electoral system, such as STV, or a two-round election à la française would allow us to actively choose the least-worst, while still allowing a clear favourite, if there is one, to win.
In that sense, the Henley closed shop is more democratic than some, in that whichever blue donkey turns up can reliably command over half the votes. Until this time, we hope.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 20:22:29 GMT
There are at most 300,000 identifying Jews in the UK. They are spread all over but with probably 80% living in and around London in say five constituencies at most. The next largest community is Manchester (30,000), with the main community spread over two constituencies. Other Jewish communities have little chance of influencing any outcome.
But, for those six or seven constituencies there is the idea of voting for anyone who will best defeat Labour. This is not an economic argument but purely defensive. We genuinely fear a Corbyn led government will affect adversely our way of life in terms of being attacked on the streets, our ability to travel to Israel, send money there, send our children there for gap year programmes (even those that have no obvious Zionistic theme) and that our loyalty to the UK will be questioned (despite a prayer said every Sabbath morning in every synagogue for the health and welfare of HMQ).
If we can avoid five or six Labour MPs it might make a difference to who governs us. It is a totally different political calculation to most people whose priorities do not include such basic aspects as personal safety or freedom to visit another country.
So the question is not as simple as persuading my family not to vote Tory. They have good reasons for doing so. I need to find a better reason to vote independent. As yet I haven't found it. But we have hustings next week in one of the synagogue's hall. That will be interesting with the Momentum candidate being faced with 300+ Jews, some with tattoos on their arms....
What will be interesting will be Finchley, where the very pro-Israel sitting Labour MP (not Jewish) could be ousted by the Jewish Luciana Berger. Former Labour MP in Liverpool but now a LibDem candidate. I'm not convinced she will get in.
Ah well.
So funny today. I was asked to attend a conference with a barrister over a big divorce case on 12th December. 'Was I free?' "I'm not sure. I'm sure I have something on that day.." I check diary; nothing in there. Just realised... Oh yes, it's the election. Doh!
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Post by tyrednexited on Nov 21, 2019 20:59:35 GMT
What will be interesting will be Finchley, where the very pro-Israel sitting Labour MP (not Jewish) could be ousted by the Jewish Luciana Berger. Former Labour MP in Liverpool but now a LibDem candidate. I'm not convinced she will get in. I think you need a fact-check there. The incumbent of the seat at the point of the election being called was Conservative. He is most patently "a friend of Israel", as was the Labour runner-up. (They are both prominent members of pro-Israeli/Jewish organisations). Not really very surprising given the make-up of the constituency. The Conservative is standing again, the Labour man not. What was most interesting over the past few weeks was the activity of the Conservative candidate's agent, Jonathan Metliss, in respect of Luciana Berger. www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/police-called-tory-supporting-lawyer-jonathan-metliss-luciana-berger-finchley-golders-green-1.493018Metliss is also, as acknowledged in the copy, seen as "a friend of Israel". This is thus seen as a "blue on blue" attack, rather than antisemitism, though there are a few people, even in the Jewish community, who are asking just what is the difference between this and the likes of the complaints against Labour. FWIW, there were a number over overarching stories at the time, not in the left-wing press, that Berger is little-liked in most of the communities she frequents, something that appears personal rather than anything antisemitic.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 22:14:17 GMT
Ah apologies. There is (or was) a Labour MP in the area who was very pro-Jewish/Israel. Maybe he was defeated in 2017? The contest will be interesting anyway. In my constituency we have had two elections with Labour and Tory Jewish candidates. The victor on both occasions was Labour, who is now independent. Whilst he claimed he left due to anti-Semitism there were other reasons for his departure, hence my hesitation at voting for him.
Luciana Berger does have a Marmite reputation. Given she is an attractive, Jewish woman, when she married a Jewish man from Liverpool, the normal outpourings of delight; 'mazal tov!' and such like were a bit muted.
I think it was partly to do with the concept of a posh Londoner being parachuted into a safe (new)Labour seat when a goldfish wearing a red rosette would be elected. Not a true northener and didn't really make an effort to be one. Not like Espadrille, who wouldn't go back South if you paid her.
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Post by bromptonaut on Nov 21, 2019 22:48:23 GMT
Ah apologies. There is (or was) a Labour MP in the area who was very pro-Jewish/Israel. Maybe he was defeated in 2017? The contest will be interesting anyway. Finchley and Golders Green has been held by Mike Freer (C) since 2010. Lived in Golders Green in 1981/2 but cannot remember who MP was then.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 6:22:57 GMT
That's him. Always thought he was Labour... don't know why. As I live 200 miles away, I don't take much notice of the details.
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