Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 23:19:28 GMT
First some background...
1. I voted remain in the referendum, albeit reluctantly
2. The EU has not covered itself in glory since 2016 in matters away from Brexit, but the status quo of pre 2016 was tolerable if we did some judicious ignoring of some EU regulations as the rest of europe does.
3. Due to increasing anti-Semitism* clearly encouraged by Corbyn and Milne I cannot even consider Labour even if i supported their disastrous economic policies
4. I would overall prefer to remain but cannot see a Liberal majority and a large Liberal minority might mean Corbyn as PM - so can I really vote for them?
5. Johnson has balls but a Conservative vote does mean Brexit. However only the Tories are likely to be serious about my rights as a Jew to live a secure life in the UK. Don't trust anyone else, as you always know that some rightwingers are inherently racist (Sir Alan Duncan) but the left are much more subtle and dangerous. Stalin killed far more than Hitler.
6. Our MP was Labour but now independent and he's OK. Never voted for him before but could vote for him now.
Who do I vote for? Espadrille is voting Tory simply to keep Corbyn out of No.10 despite wanting to vote Liberal.
* three weeks ago a friend was walking along the main road on which we live. She crossed the pavement with some orthodox Jewish men and as they crossed an egg was thrown from a passing car. She was distraught. Clearly premeditated action. This Saturday I was crossing our road when a car drove past me. The driver opened his window, shouted abuse at me 'xxxxxxxx Jew' and continued on his way. The police have the details of the car. All this is encouraged by Corbyn to my certain knowledge. If he gets into power he will encourage the worst anti-Semitism seen in Europe since 1945.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 30, 2019 13:30:14 GMT
First, I’m very sorry you’ve had to suffer the abuse you have. That’s not the Britain I recognize and it’s deeply distressing that recent events have emboldened some people to behave this way.
On the election, I think it comes down to the biggest issue and how you feel about it. No voting decision is perfect and our simplistic electoral system makes it worse.
For me, Corbyn is a disaster who has been in a position to stop much of the harm of the last five years but failed to do so. That failure to lead would also explain the antisemitism problem; Corbyn should have stamped on that element but didn’t.
But Labour with him in charge is vanishingly unlikely to win a governing majority. It might win enough to form a unity government with support from the SNP and Lib Dems. Listening to Jo Swinson this morning made me think that Lib Dem support for a Labour government might be conditional on a change of leader. And Keir Starmer will not be so soft on racist elements in the party.
But I can’t see any government elected this time lasting a full five years either, so for me what matters most will be its plan for Europe. Conservatives with a majority will go hell-for-leather for Moggian deregulation, unwinding those meddlesome environmental standards and employment protections and selling what remains to Donald Trump. The £70bn annual hit to the economy is just the tip of a catastrophic iceberg that will also smash the Union; Northern Ireland first, then probably Scotland too. Johnson has purged the party of moderates, and we have boneheaded ideologues like Dominic Raab and Priti Patel in the cabinet. That’s not a country I want to live in.
So for me it’s clear: if we think Brexit has been bad so far, we’ve only seen the beginning. My vote makes no difference because I live in a Conservative closed shop. But I’ll be working to encourage the young and undecided to vote for the most likely anti-Brexit candidate. Only once we begin the end of the Brexit nightmare can we get back to fixing Britain itself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 19:57:07 GMT
Those are to an extent reassuring words.
I do question though the comment "if we think Brexit has been bad so far, we’ve only seen the beginning". From my perspective, apart from a poor exchange rate, the economy seems to be in reasonable shape, business is sound and life could be a lot worse. Yes, Brexit will affect the economy and I would prefer not to leave. Most of us live in areas where the opprtunity to change the colour of the MP is limited. I may have a chance, but its slim. However any vote for Labour is one vote closer to Corbyn getting in. So do we vote Liberal?
The extremism pre-dates Brexit; how did we get into a situation where we even had a Scottish referendum, that Trump and Clinton were the only candidates in the US election; the civil unrest in various countries; Russian invading Ukraine. What happened to our leaders that the populace has risen up and demanded change to the status quo? Do we now have a leadership (of any colour) which is so poor that it makes the 1970s Labour cabinet look sensible and capable.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 30, 2019 20:50:48 GMT
I do question though the comment "if we think Brexit has been bad so far, we’ve only seen the beginning". From my perspective, apart from a poor exchange rate, the economy seems to be in reasonable shape, business is sound and life could be a lot worse. And it will be. Remember that it hasn’t actually started yet. If Johnson wins enough seats to get his deal approved, it only gets us into a ‘transition period’ that lasts to the end of 2020. What happens after that depends on the next phase of negotiations, which may not happen at all, if a new intake of hard-right Tories get their way. Then we’re right back into no deal, Yellowhammer and stockpiling penicillin and canned beans — plus much sucking up to Trump in the hope that he’ll take that troublesome NHS off our hands. That’s why we must deny Johnson. Without wishing to trivialize your concerns, the extremists in the Labour Party are few in number and a transient problem that a decent leader will deal with within a month of taking charge. A Tory majority in parliament will break this country for decades, possibly for ever. It’s that serious. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 8:53:06 GMT
I think WDB is as close to being spot on as is possible. I'm a Lib Dem member, and I'm torn. Lab and Tory were neck and neck in my seat last time, Libs a very, very distant third. however, two elections before that we had a well known local candidate and it was pretty much a three way marginal. also, Lib Dem got the most votes in my seat at the EU elections this year. So I very much want to believe that the Libs can challenge here, but I am terrified at the thought of the Tory candidate, who is a Johnson fanatic, a hard Brexiteer and a climate change denier, winning the seat. Brexit Party/UKIP, will not split the Tory vote here, but a big Lib surge could kill off the incumbent (harmless, but very much a party-line poodle) Labour incumbent.
I very much want to vote with my conscience and stay Lib Dem, but if the Tory wins, I shan't be able to forgive myself. I am also horrified at the thought of voting Labour for the first time in my life, for the reasons outlined by EIII.
Oh for PR, or at least AV, but of course, no, the great British public rejected that in a referendum, didn't they...
I suppose the best I can hope for is a minority Lab administration with a new leader, and a confidence and supply from the Lib Dems/SNP getting us out of Brexit, although it's really hard to imagine Comrade Corbyn and his fanatical outriders giving in when he's clutching the keys to Number 10. And avoiding Brexit is my main concern at this election. I may well end up holding my nose very, very tightly, but let's see how the campaign goes.
Sadly I think the Lib Dems elected the wrong leader and Swinson will not even achieve a Clegg-2010 level of support. My vote went to the other candidate, but he was soundly beaten. I'd have liked to have chosen Tom Brake.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 11:13:21 GMT
Espadrille is voting Tory. Don't yet know if our incumbent (was Labour now independent) is standing but he may split the Labour vote leading to a Tory win. There are probably only about three or four seats in the country at most where the Jewish vote will get behind ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) but it might make a differnce in a hung parliament and lots of people of my acquaintance are currently sending spare cash overseas now.
Argghh. Just don't know. I've never not voted before.
Would have been better to have a second referendum but requiring a 60% majority to leave and based on solid facts; not Project Fear or £350M per week will go back into the NHS.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 11:27:52 GMT
Your independent may also split the Tory vote, attracting Tory remainers. There will probably be a Brexit Party candidate to split them further. Maybe all this splitting will let the LibDems in...
This election is the least predictable ever. It's probably valid just to vote for who you like most (dislike least), and what will be will be.
Or, if Brexit is your biggest concern, vote for whoever a tactical voting guide says is the best bet, such as the Best For Britain guide.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 16:54:42 GMT
It's nice to hear a good solid northern no-nonsense accent coming from the Speaker's Chair. Seems for more human and less egotistical than Bercow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2019 9:06:00 GMT
Really? OK.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 15:07:51 GMT
I am getting really annoyed with both Labour and Tory researchers delving back through years and years of candidates Facebook and other social media outlets looking for gaffes.
The latest is some Tory candidate who said 14 years ago that if Gadaffi want to hide he couldn't choose a better place than Bradford. A little tasteless but technically true.
Labour candidates have similarly been found with some tasteless comments from years ago. Does this do us any good at all.
Concentrate on what they say now and on the last couple of years to get the measure of the person.
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Post by bromptonaut on Nov 10, 2019 17:39:04 GMT
I am getting really annoyed with both Labour and Tory researchers delving back through years and years of candidates Facebook and other social media outlets looking for gaffes. The latest is some Tory candidate who said 14 years ago that if Gadaffi want to hide he couldn't choose a better place than Bradford. A little tasteless but technically true. Labour candidates have similarly been found with some tasteless comments from years ago. Does this do us any good at all. Concentrate on what they say now and on the last couple of years to get the measure of the person. Hmm - Beyond just tasteless IMHO; all brown skinned people look alike do they? I'd imagine a North African Arab would stick out like a sore thumb to the predominantly Pakistani heritage Asians in Bradford. And probably to an observant white person too. Would a joke about hiding a Jewish war criminal in Stamford Hill go down OK? |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Nov 10, 2019 19:55:13 GMT
If Gaddafi behaved like the three Libyans I knew during my post grad years at university you'd also know they were not from any of India, Pakistan or Bangladesh even without looking at them. The language is of course very different but when they spoke English they were clearly different too. And the three I knew were not particularly nice people either. Their attitude to women was the worst. This was 26 years ago and I remember one of them clearly - a horrible person.*
* I'm not tarring all Libyans with the same brush as I'm using for him :-)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 13:03:23 GMT
I am getting really annoyed with both Labour and Tory researchers delving back through years and years of candidates Facebook and other social media outlets looking for gaffes. The latest is some Tory candidate who said 14 years ago that if Gadaffi want to hide he couldn't choose a better place than Bradford. A little tasteless but technically true. Labour candidates have similarly been found with some tasteless comments from years ago. Does this do us any good at all. Concentrate on what they say now and on the last couple of years to get the measure of the person. Hmm - Beyond just tasteless IMHO; all brown skinned people look alike do they? I'd imagine a North African Arab would stick out like a sore thumb to the predominantly Pakistani heritage Asians in Bradford. And probably to an observant white person too. Would a joke about hiding a Jewish war criminal in Stamford Hill go down OK? Not a joke no, but there have been cases of Jewish criminals hiding in plain sight in Stamford Hill. It is unfortunate and some people in the ultra Orthodix community have an historic aversion to 'grassing up' such people, but it happens and to most white people, someone wearing clothes reflecting a Muslim background would go unremarked upon, just as the same people see all Jews wearing coats as the same even if we are not. The point is that raking over really old stuff is pointless. People change. I can think of neo-Nazis who are now orthodox Jews, Christian preachers who became Moslem. Comments made 15 years ago, however wrong at the time, do not reflect how people think today. I would have been probably fairly homophobic 15 years ago. I now view the discrimination and abuse of gay people as appalling. There are many reasons why this has happened, including a close family friend who is closer in age to our children than to us, coming out and marrying his partner. Politicians can change. Old views can be replaced by new views. Comments made as a youthful student can be replaced by views of a more mature adult who has had to earn money, mix with people of different ages and lifestyles and perhaps live with a spouse who wont stand for extreme political nonsense. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 13:40:53 GMT
How's that dilemma coming along, EIII? Is your incumbent former-Labour independent standing?
I'm still dilemmaing. I think if i lived a few yards away in WDB's constituency, I'd be voting with my heart, not tactically. It would probably still go down the drain though. Isn't it a wonderful system.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 21, 2019 14:16:30 GMT
I’d hope you’d vote Lib Dem with the rest of us. I’ve just been out delivering letters on behalf of Laura Coyle and there are a lot of orange boards and posters in gardens and windows. No Tory ones that I noticed.
John ‘Never Afraid To Do Exactly As This Week’s Leader Tells Me’ Howell was reported to be campaigning in the marketplace, but he’d evidently done his quota by the time I got there.
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