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Post by bromptonaut on Dec 7, 2019 11:54:39 GMT
Kevin,
I think you're missing my point. It's not about my blinkers (or for that matter yours).
I accept that there have been egregious displays of anti-semitism toward Jewish Labour MPs such as Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger. There's a debate to be had around other allegations, support for the Palestinians and extent to which some are keen to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism but that's not what I'm on about now.
What I am looking for is evidence that stuff in the Labour party (rather than other currents in society) is what has emboldened or is even a factor in the emboldening of those who abuse Jews like E III in the street. It was for that reason I wondered if you were experiencing same thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 1:08:34 GMT
The last two or three general elections strike me as a choice between a bag of sh*t and a crock of sh*t.
I wasn't allowed to vote in 'the referendum', been out of the UK too long although each time I look at my passport it still says British Citizen, must get that looked at and get 2nd class added next time it gets renewed. Maybe I can get it for free.
I wouldn't vote Conservative because Boris is a liability. The man has no morals and is of questionable character - is how some may put it.
I wouldn't vote Labour as above with Jeremy. He really must need a lot of fine wood removed from his behind with all his fence sitting. He changes his mind more often than his socks.
Given all the other parties we look a bit thin on the ground of choice for all the shouting of democracy over the last three going on four years. It's starting to look more like the land of the free. Democracy is important, you must vote, Red or Blue ? One or Zero ? Left or Right ? Not really much of a choice is it ? The UK and US for that matter doesn't do representation. It's a sh*t or bust support the winners or you're screwed for the next term including your local councils if you don't support the winners.
What really concerns me, given all the internal fighting and disagreement, is how the country is going to present a united front to the world when negotiating future deals. Whoever came up with divide and conquer must be extremely proud...
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Post by Alanović on Dec 9, 2019 8:18:11 GMT
Kevin, I think you're missing my point. It's not about my blinkers (or for that matter yours). I accept that there have been egregious displays of anti-semitism toward Jewish Labour MPs such as Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger. There's a debate to be had around other allegations, support for the Palestinians and extent to which some are keen to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism but that's not what I'm on about now. What I am looking for is evidence that stuff in the Labour party (rather than other currents in society) is what has emboldened or is even a factor in the emboldening of those who abuse Jews like E III in the street. It was for that reason I wondered if you were experiencing same thing. It's convenient for Labour that the evidence you ask of Kevin is essentially impossible to provide. Just as it is with hate crimes against East Europeans increasing after the Leave vote. But we all know the truth of these things is that when hatred isn't stood upon by all our political establishment, it flourishes. When it remains unchecked and unpunished, it entrenches. Both main political parties are guilty of this at this time.
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bobby
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Post by bobby on Dec 10, 2019 9:48:22 GMT
Bobby I am not sure how to reply but if you walked in my shoes on most Saturdays, you would understand. Nothing more to say. To explain a bot of background here - I have not been on this forum for months - happened to come across a "favourite" called General Discussion when clearing out my laptop and it pointed to here and still had the sign on details saved. A quick scan on the subjects and I noticed this discussion on anti-semitism and thus my question. If espada has staken the hump at this then I am sorry he has felt the need to leave the forum - he is obviously a valued contributor. But it also does not detract from my point that someone would base their voting in this election purely on one version's opinion of the labour party. Plenty of other Jews saying they are not anti -semitic etc. Plenty of Jews saying that the Tories are anti- semitic. We have a crisis in our country and much of it can be laid at the Conservative party's door. Hate crime is on the increase for all minorities whether it be religion , country of origin or whatever. This has all been stemmed from the Tory party's Brexit which has opened the door for hate to be at the forefront, whether that be on social media or in person. Brexit is a poison and Boris wants it over the line. I accept that our democracy states that you are voting for an MP to serve your area well and the PM is in place as a result of that. But how anyone with thoughts and feelings for the the less well off in our society, the minority groups, could vote for Boris who is a proven liar, who shows daily he does not have a clue what he is saying and is quite willing to lie without any moral fibre in his body, and you want this man to control the country, the NHS, the economy and our relations with oither countries. The Tory party exists to cause divisions in society, it wants the rich to get richer and the poor to stay poor and be at the beck and call of the rich. How anyone with a religious background can then say this is the party for me really stuns me.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 10, 2019 11:00:45 GMT
I have used swapmyvote.uk and I will now vote Labour in Reading in exchange for someone who has agreed to vote LibDem in Guildford, where they have a chance to remove the Tory.
I can now feel I have voted LibDem somewhere it matters.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 11, 2019 16:56:30 GMT
Guess I could have offered a Labour vote in Bury in exchange for Esp’s LD vote here, and done both sides some good.
Just been out with my last batch of Laura Coyle leaflets. Having canvassed personally with her a couple of times, I’m hugely impressed. She’d certainly work harder for the constituency than the useless deadbeat time-server John Howell, who richly deserves an early bath. I doubt he’ll get one, but he certainly won’t get 59% this time.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 13, 2019 0:44:21 GMT
So it looks like it’s on Corbyn for walking into Johnson’s trap by accepting an election he wasn’t fit to fight, and for being a liability on the doorstep even here where nobody was expected to vote for him anyway.
This feels horrible. It’s going to be a bad five years for the UK.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 3:14:13 GMT
It’s going to be a bad five years for the UK. If the Conservatives scrap FTPA, as they said they will, it may well go way beyond 5 years. There's a thought to cheer you up.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 13, 2019 7:19:29 GMT
Unless they do, we’ll be doing another December election in 2024. If there’s anything left to vote for.
Small comfort: our Lib Dem campaign in Henley bucked the trend, got over 30% for the superb Laura Coyle and took Donkey Howell down from 59% to 54. Most of Howell’s voters won’t have considered anything else — and a good chunk of those won’t live another five years. So we’ll be back but it’s going to be a long and painful five years.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 13, 2019 8:31:33 GMT
So my tactical voting kept the execrable Tory out in Reading East, but failed to deliver the LibDem in Guildford, thanks to the Labour vote there.
I doubt I'll ever vote Labour again, the fucking idiots.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 13, 2019 10:39:37 GMT
A letter sent by a friend to teh Telegraph today...
"As a reluctant Remainer and one who has voted Tory for the whole of my life, I would probably have not voted Tory this time if it were not for the threat of a Corbyn-led government.
His antipathy towards Jews, his is lack of fairness towards the state of Israel, his support of any ‘liberation cause’ however invalid, his obvious lack of respect for the country and institutions that raised him, and the lunatic financial programme proposed, all made it clear that despite my reservations about leaving the EU there was only one possible party I could vote for.
All the protestations by Labour politicians on the radio and television since the election result, stating that it was only Brexit that caused their failure are wrong, it was simply Jeremy Corbyn who was to blame."
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Post by Alanović on Dec 13, 2019 10:55:58 GMT
Well lets just see what happens to levels of racism and hate crimes in the country now.
We are in a very dark place, and it just got darker.
Hungary-in-the-North-Sea. It's just a matter of how far down the list the Jews are, not very far is my assessment of the situation. It's going so well for them in the US after all, and we are now on course to follow, under the So Great Leadership of Britain Trump.
Mrs A already feels far too self conscious of her mildly funny accent, and that's as a British Citizen and passport holder. Where are you from? Reading? No, where are you REALLY from etc etc etc.
So thank your friends who voted in the racists who will prioritise the persecution of others before they get round to your lot if you wouldn't mind.
Cheers.
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Post by Humph on Dec 13, 2019 11:18:58 GMT
We have to look for the positives in any situation. I was a firm remainer and the result of the referendum was a great disappointment to me. The very threat of Brexit has had a tangibly negative effect on my business life. My/our EU business activity has suffered greatly as a direct result of the uncertainty.
However, you have to work with what you have, and what we have now is at least a clear direction of travel. We have been circling the same roundabout for 3.5 years now without any clear idea of which road to take.
At least now we have a route planned. It wouldn't have been my choice, but that's where we are going, and if nothing else it will soon be clear what that direction presents in terms of its challenges and maybe, we must trust, some opportunities.
I'm fed up with telling our EU customers that we simply don't know what happens next ( but please place your orders with us anyway ) and if nothing else, I hope that soon I'll be able to be clear with them as to what we have, when and how we can deliver it, and how much it will cost them.
Time to move on, it is what it is, better or worse, but it's done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 11:33:02 GMT
It is what it is and we just have to deal with it.
As one of the people most impacted by this and actively excluded from voting originally I can't help but feel I'm getting all the stick and no carrot. Not what I pictured of democracy.
My choice now is pay for permanent residency and retain no voice or bin the 2nd class citizenship I have for an upgrade where I at least get a say. When written down like that it looks pretty clear the direction for me and my family.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 13, 2019 11:33:51 GMT
We still don't know, Humph.
We now face rigorous trade negotiations, and don't have a Parliament which will extend us beyond December 2020 if we can't get one to our satisfaction. So we are cornered, and have to accept whatever is offered, or face, again, No Deal.
We have actually managed to put ourselves in an even worse position. 'Get Brexit Done' was the biggest lie of them all.
I have nothing but contempt for anyone who has voted Tory.
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