Avant
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Post by Avant on Dec 13, 2019 11:34:07 GMT
Espada, so good to see you back. I was about to post something identical to your friend's first sentence - my position entirely.
I wpuld much prefer our prime minister to be someone less untrustworthy and self-seeking than Boris Johnson; but the alternative would be a party whose unaffordable policies would have bankrupted the country, led by a weak and ineffective man who, as Clement Attlee said when he had to sack a minister, simply wasn't up to the job. I feel as strongly as you that Corbyn's failure to control anti-Semitism in his party is appalling: he would also have failed to stop Len McCluskey and the unions from regaining their dominance - just as disastrous although in a different way.
I don't agree with Al that the Conservatives are racists: but they must control any racism - and perceived racism - among their supporters.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Dec 13, 2019 11:37:34 GMT
They won't. It's their base now.
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Avant
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Post by Avant on Dec 13, 2019 16:07:03 GMT
"I have nothing but contempt for anyone who has voted Tory."
I think 'contempt' is too strong a word in this context - at least I hope so as (for the reasons in my post above) I voted Conservative, albeit reluctantly, as I'm sure did many centrists like me. Likewise, Al, you had your reasons for voting Labour, and I respect them. On the other hand, if you have contempt for racists and anti-Semites, so have I.
The problem is that the best people don't go into politics, so that we're governed by second-raters. I'm sure we've all met people during our lives whom we've admired and respected - but how many of those are politicians? And of course it has become a vicious circle: the less we think of our politicians, the fewer people see politics as a career.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 14, 2019 18:47:11 GMT
The sad thing is that Labour was the natural home of Jewish people in the UK. No longer and most of us vote as a matter of course simply to stop the trendy lefty anti democrats from gaining power.
A young man in Manchester (he would now be about 105) set up a lighting company. He was very successful, but also was strong in the regional Labour movement. He was a councillor for Labour and was appointed to local quangos because of his Labour ties but also his business acumen. He ended up being knighted.
His three sons are all involved in the family business as are two of his grandchildren. They are wealthy with large, luxurious family homes, overseas homes and plenty of disposable income. Their involvement in local Jewish and non-Jewish charities is immense, giving time and money to many causes. True upstanding citizens of Britain at its best.
They have always voted Labour until 2017 for obvious reasons. What a disaster for Labour.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Dec 16, 2019 8:50:32 GMT
Avant, the reason I use the word contempt is that a Tory vote this time was a vote for a hard Brexit, in which essential rights are going to be removed from people, without their consent, rights which are not just desired but actively needed. Rights upon which people have built their lives and families in good faith over almost 30 years.
I think it contemptible to do that to other people.
How can you justify that action?
My vote for Labour, as I explained, was given in the hope of a hung Parliament, as a result of our perverse, undemocratic and unjust electoral system. I did not want Labour or Corbyn in charge.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 16, 2019 17:11:01 GMT
I also voted conservative, it seemed the only way to move on.
Labour is and was a dead duck in their present form, The Lib dems had burned their boats entirely with a pledge to ignore the referendum, cancel Brexit and all carry on as if it had never happened, no chance. Boris, with all his faults seemed to me to be the only way forward, however bad it was. A hung parliament would have extended the bickering, prolonged the uncertainty, screwed what industry and commerce we have left, and given no hope to anyone.
We have to take the anger and hate out of politics and there was, in my opinion, no other way. The detail now has to be worked out and there is a lot of negotiation to happen in the next year, it is a naive point of view but we are now entering a phase which hopefully will be seen in 15-20 years as a time when we bottomed out and changed the direction of our society, and that does not start with hate, contempt, blame, or anger. Boris will, in my view, be a temporary blip, gone in less that 5 years, he is not a serious enough politician to stay out of trouble for that time, but he was the least worst of a dreadful set of choices.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 16, 2019 17:52:17 GMT
I admit I struggle to understand this reasoning. There were only two possible outcomes to this election: a Tory majority and a hung parliament. One would have got us a referendum on whether to put a border inside the UK and polish up the NHS for sale to Donald Trump; the other — well, who knows, but it won’t be good.
There was no chance of a Lib Dem majority — although, had one come about, it could have quite legitimately and democratically passed an act to stop the Article 50 process. And no chance either of Labour winning enough seats to govern without SNP and Lib Dem support, for which the smaller parties would have exacted significant concessions.
So I’m baffled by the idea that voting Conservative, while still knowing how bad and unscrupulous they are, was the only way to avoid a dreadful outcome. Instead, it has assured one. It’s done now, but it’s very disappointing that so many apparently sensible people spurned the last chance they had to stop the zealots completing their hijack of this country.
Tories are bastards. They will behave like bastards and we can’t really blame them for it, any more than you can blame the seagull for stealing your chips; it’s all they know how to do. But we need people who are not bastards not to enable those who are bastards, using weak reasoning like, [kermit voice]“Oh, you know, better safe than sorry.”[/Kermit voice]
But the bastards are firmly in charge now. We can only hope they trip themselves up — which, to be fair, they are plenty capable of doing. Least-worst option, my arse.
Anyway, nice to see you again, CD. 🤠
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 16, 2019 19:05:39 GMT
Does anybody reall believe, especially given the result of the election, that a hung parliament could/would have agreed on a second referendum question that would not have been just as messy as the situation we have been in for the last few years, never min d the fuss there would have been whatever the result. Secondly, if, by some miracle, the above resulted in a remain majority, there would have been as many arguments over that as there has been for the last 3 years, plus the prospect of another referendum up north with the fuss and unpleasantness that brought last time, plus a bit. All that we would have got from anything but a large conservative majority would have been more arguments, hate, and chaos for our economy. I didn't want Boris but he really is the only way to move on, bad as he is. Lastly, lets take the unpleasantness out of it please, any generalisation like "the Tories are bastards" are a) wrong - are nearly 14 million people really all "bastards", any more than 17 million all "racists' or thick or whatever? So they didn't have the same opinion as i did, lets get real, whatever the next few years brings we can move on and start to be a society without the hate of everybody with a different opinion. I, for one, have had enough of the arguments and the idea that you can defeat anybody by insulting them is not 21st century thinking in my book.
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Post by dixinormus on Dec 16, 2019 19:45:58 GMT
100% behind what Commerdriver said ^^
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 16, 2019 19:58:58 GMT
There aren’t 14 million Tories; there are about a hundredth of that number. Those are the bastards. The rest of us just need to know what they are and what they do, and do what we can to keep them away from anything important.
And a hung parliament would have got a referendum, because it would, by definition, have had a majority from parties that had manifesto commitments to offer one. That shows up the strategic error, first of Jo Swinson, then of Corbyn, because they risked everything on an election whose best possible outcome was something about as good as they already had. Foolish.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 20:07:06 GMT
I look forward to seeing what this Canada style agreement Boris is talking about will look like.
CETA negotiations started in October 2008 and concluded 1 August 2014. After several rounds of discussion CETA came into effect 21st Sept. 2017. It covers Agriculture, Environment, Impact on Fisheries, acceptance of each others conformity assessment standards and some movement of people which was one of the main drivers of Brexit.
A few days under nine years in total for something which is not all inclusive by any means. I think 11 months might be what they call a stretch for team Boris.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 16, 2019 21:13:07 GMT
"There aren’t 14 million Tories; there are about a hundredth of that number. Those are the bastards." only 140000 'bastartds", that's alright then, thats not generalising at all.
Any generalisation like that is exactly what i am getting at, i have had enough of this sort of attitude, the anyone who has a different opinion is a bastard / contemptible / thick, / racist, etc etc etc. life is too short and unpredictable for the sake of living in a peaceful society lets move on.
The problem in the last few years is that nobody has tried to look for agreement, it has all been about victory, defeat, insults and name calling. Do we really want 5 more years of that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 21:35:44 GMT
The problem in the last few years is that nobody has tried to look for agreement, it has all been about victory, defeat, insults and name calling. Do we really want 5 more years of that? I don't think you are ever going to get an agreement. The UK is tribal be it politics, football, religion whatever there is no middle ground to be had. A referendum was had, the result was split by the narrowest of margins and whichever way it turns roughly half the people are not going to agree. I don't see how Boris or anyone saying let's draw a line under and move on is going to reunify a divided country. Address that and you may get an agreement and move on - and probably a Nobel peace prize and top job at the UN in the process.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 16, 2019 22:30:13 GMT
Why do people keep saying it had gone around in circles and went nowhere for years. Until May had her agreement there was nothing Parliament was asked to vote on. Now 18 months maybe closer to the time this went nowhere :-) First amendments were made around June 2018 weren't they? Fist meaningful vote was not until January 2019.
And most of Boris' deal is Theresa May's deal - so the first two years of her negotiations saved him two years.
How long before the EU insist on extending the deadline before they will even negotiate? February 1st?
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 16, 2019 22:39:09 GMT
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