WDB
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Posts: 7,356
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Post by WDB on Dec 17, 2019 7:51:06 GMT
Why do people keep saying it had gone around in circles and went nowhere for years. Until May had her agreement there was nothing Parliament was asked to vote on. Remember that May began the process by trying to bypass parliament altogether. She and Johnson both tried to avoid legitimate, democratic scrutiny and had to be dragged into court by brave, self-sacrificing campaigners to stop them. Johnson is now threatening ‘reform’ of the court system in retaliation, a move from the Trump-Orban-Erdogan playbook. That Tory behaviour wasn’t acceptable then and isn’t now. So it surprises me that otherwise reasonable people endorse it by voting for them.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 9:30:46 GMT
They will back No Deal. Our Tory candidate (defeated, thank Allah and Jehovah) was explicit about this.
Well done, Tory voters, you've just backed us in to a No Deal corner.
There, you resolved it all. Have a gold star and a sticky bun.
I don't know about anyone else, but my hatred, comtempt and resentment of what is being done will not be resolved by this, I will not be reconciled or reunified or whatever the hell other window dressing the Tory bastards will now scream at us whilst the nation burns and the hard right reshape our constitution and culture. Our country is swirling down the toilet, and we're being told to hitch a ride on the log flume to the sewer.
*Naughty word* them to hell.
You think the rising racism and parochialism is going to be stemmed now? Or will it increase? My Mrs was born outside the UK. We have 2 children. She's been here 22 years after gaining Masters level education in her home country, took British citizenship, always been working in highly paid jobs, paid unthinkable amounts of tax, had cancer twice which has been treated in the private health system, gives everything and takes nothing. Pays for our children to be privately educated, both of them from the age of 5 and they'll stay private until 18. Refused to even teach our kids her native language in case they got bullied about it.
And yet we still have this sneering atmosphere around us, you know, foreigners are just here to jib off us, health tourism, funny fucking looks from nasty old bastards - what's she doing here in the GP's? All that shit. She still speaks with a slight accent, and it's pounced on by everyone - in the street, in the pub, at work, wherever - it's always, "Where are you from? Reading? No, no where are you really from?" Always being measured, judged, feeling like we're supposed to explain everything to everyone to justify her mere existence in the country.
Put our shoes on for just 5 seconds and have a think how you'd feel. EIII can probably tell you, and I doubt if his woes are going to go away now that Corbyn's been seen off either.
Thanks a fucking million, Britain. You're lovely.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 9:53:34 GMT
Oh, and by he way, I do realise what I say will not be welcomed by those who have voted Tory - I'm not entirely sure how else I can get the enormity of what you've inflicted on the nation across without being this blunt.
People are and will be broken by this. Families, livelihoods, lives even. WDB is right above - our "gentlemen's agreement" form of democracy as we know it is over. And there's nothing left to protect us from it.
It's utterly heartbreaking to see everything fought for in the 40s and built over the following decades, torn down under the false banner of patriotism. It's revolting to see the consequences of this unleashing of nationalist and nativist sentiment. It's all Spitfires and White Cliffs imagery, but a cursory listen to the diminishing few voices were actually there and who actually fought will tell you how that generation feel about this division with our neighbours.
I can't agree with a single thing commerdriver and Avant say on this. This headlong rush just to "do something" and "only Boris can fix this", because we're bored of it is utterly unforgivable. It's bullshit, the consequences will be appalling, and I'm having none of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 10:15:30 GMT
No Deal by end of 2020 is all there is reading the press today. If you look at the timeline I very much doubt anything else is possible.
Do we think we can get agreements on the major industrial sectors in place with 27 countries, translated and ratified in the next twelve months ?
Tell me Spain won't use Gibraltar as a bargaining chip. Will Greece use Akrotiri in Cyprus in a similar way ? Will the Walloon farmers repeat their CETA behaviour ? How many other 'issues' will come up ? I'm pretty sure the UK farmers and fishermen will not take the first tabled proposal either.
An agreement will be reached, eventually. Not measured in units of less than 1 year though.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 17, 2019 10:18:44 GMT
No political party is really responsible for racism, doesn't matter whether the people who are racist towards your wife are tory / labour or whatever they are wrong, ignorant and evil, racism in any form is wrong . Nobody wants a no deal brexit and I do not believe that is what we will get, no sensible negotiator starts off with that sort of option off the table. Boris is a moron in many ways but like it or not to me he was the only sensible option, every other way i believe screws our economy and our society more. Your wife sill see less racism when society changes not when politics changes. Disagree all you like, but i really believe that Boris was the least worst option, among the worst set of options we have had in an election as long as I have been a voter.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 10:19:38 GMT
No Deal by end of 2020 is all there is reading the press today. If you look at the timeline I very much doubt anything else is possible. Do we think we can get agreements on the major industrial sectors in place with 27 countries, translated and ratified in the next twelve months ? Tell me Spain won't use Gibraltar as a bargaining chip. Will Greece use Akrotiri in Cyprus in a similar way ? Will the Walloon farmers repeat their CETA behaviour ? How many other 'issues' will come up ? I'm pretty sure the UK farmers and fisherman will not take the first tabled proposal either. An agreement will be reached, eventually. Not measured in units of less than 1 year though. Get Brexit Done, eh? Who bought that bollocks? Don't say you weren't warned.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 10:25:13 GMT
No political party is really responsible for racism, doesn't matter whether the people who are racist towards your wife are tory / labour or whatever they are wrong, ignorant and evil, racism in any form is wrong . Nobody wants a no deal brexit and I do not believe that is what we will get, no sensible negotiator starts off with that sort of option off the table. Boris is a moron in many ways but like it or not to me he was the only sensible option, every other way i believe screws our economy and our society more. Your wife sill see less racism when society changes not when politics changes. Disagree all you like, but i really believe that Boris was the least worst option, among the worst set of options we have had in an election as long as I have been a voter. I presume you meant "on the table"? He's going to put it right back on the table on Friday. It's all over the news media this morning. You can't be suggesting it's a sensible tactic, legislating for No Deal? Sheesh.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 17, 2019 10:40:42 GMT
No political party is really responsible for racism, doesn't matter whether the people who are racist towards your wife are tory / labour or whatever they are wrong, ignorant and evil, racism in any form is wrong. There are racists and thugs in society, of course. But political parties can choose to oppose them or to pander to them. Johnson’s rhetoric of ‘letterboxes’ and ‘collaborators’ gives the thugs the chance to feel they’re part of something bigger and legitimate. He uses the authoritarian’s trick of inventing enemies — parliament, the courts, the ‘collaborators’ — and legitimising popular hostility to them and distracting attention from his own dismantling of our constitutional protections. There is no ‘getting Brexit done’ because none of the things we'll need in our new isolation are ready — or even started. CD mentioned ‘uncertainty’ as a problem, maybe even the main problem. But we only ever heard that from Tories who needed us to believe that the only thing wrong with their plan was the (huge) opposition to it. Anyone who appeals for ‘unity’ is merely saying, “Cease your tiresome dissenting and agree with me!” As for no-deal being a valid negotiating tool (another idea heard only from Tories) it’s only true if the EU takes it upon itself at the twenty-third hour to save the British people from their own government. ‘Give me what I want or I harm myself’ is neither mature nor productive.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 17, 2019 11:05:20 GMT
I accept that our politicians including BJ should be doing more to stoo racism and racist comments he needs a good slap where that is concerned, as I said, i do not like Johnson. To suggest that nothing is happening inside government, civil service and commercial business to prepare for Brexit is nonsense, but we do need a target to aim at.
We obviously disagree on what the future holds and what choices we made, i honestly believe that I voted the only way possible in the situation and wish I thought that there was another way, i just don't believe there was any better option on 12th December.
We will find out over the coming months and years
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Avant
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Post by Avant on Dec 17, 2019 12:57:48 GMT
Absolutely, Commerdriver. As you've shown, the more moderate the language, the more persuasive the case you make.
There is at least hope that Boris, for all his faults, will lead a government that moves towards the centre - which is what the vast majority of people want. I couldn't see any signs that Jeremy Corbyn would have done that.
I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm a diehard Tory: I voted Labour three times (in the three elections that Tony Blair won) and would probably have done so again this year if Labour had offered a reasonable centre-left option. But we really can't have a government which would have allowed the unions to regain the power they had, and abused, in the 1970s.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 13:05:09 GMT
Meanwhile Boris is busy drawing up the law to deliver No Deal Brexit in a year's time.
Please, a pint of what you're smoking. This is government by Dominic Cummings. His modus operandi is "disruption". And not in a god way.
Corbyn was not the alternative at this election. A Hung Parliament was, which would likely have delivered a centre left coalition and a referendum, under a non-Corbyn PM.
It's over now, the centre is gone, moderation is out of our reach for 5 years.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 17, 2019 14:47:59 GMT
I think you will find that moderation will be the way forward. Boris has to find a way to serve the former Labour voting regions to ensure that he keeps their votes in 2024. He will need to provide jobs, services, roads, HS2 etc etc. You have to start a negotiation with the statement that "If we can't agree this is what I am going to do..". Just like buying a car. "If we can't agree a price I am walking out the door...". From there discussions move on.
I think you paint it too negatively Al. I too will ask your wife where she is from and I do that simply because I like the idea of people coming to the UK, bringing different skills, culture and DNA to our shores. I don't do it from a racist perspective (how can I?) but from wonderment that people voluntarily wish to live here. I even query why people want to come to Manchester even though I would live nowhere else in the UK. I am not alone and being fair, far more people are genuinely interested in my Jewish heritage than there are who assault me.
Commerdriver shows a side that I suspect many voters took on Thursday. A hung parliament is no good at a time of need for strong decision making and showing the hard left that their views are totally out of order. The problem for me is that many in the LibDem fold have similar traits of calling people out if they don't agree with their point of view. That is what has been defeated in this election. The average voter, who Emily Thornberry thinks are thick, knows what they want, knows that they do not want to be disrespected or treated as idiots and can see dictaorship a mile off. Boris is no dictator as I expect him to prove.
The arguments in Labour are about returning to Centre. The Torys are already there and the next election will be fought there. We are not Europe and the right-wing will never get a look in as they are too obvious. This election has emasculated the ERG just as it has Momentum.
Take a leaf (or the front cover) from Douglas Adams....
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 15:02:00 GMT
The Torys are in the centre? OMFG I've heard it all now. As for Avant's call for moderate language earlier, I rather like this:
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WDB
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Posts: 7,356
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Post by WDB on Dec 17, 2019 15:26:07 GMT
You have to start a negotiation with the statement that "If we can't agree this is what I am going to do..". Just like buying a car. "If we can't agree a price I am walking out the door...". ...and going home in the car I arrived in. Oh wait, I can't because I set fire to it. Such an obvious hole in the argument, yet people keep repeating it as if it made any sense. Commerdriver shows a side that I suspect many voters took on Thursday. A hung parliament is no good at a time of need for strong decision making... A refrain of strongman autocrats down the generations. A strong decision is no good if it's the wrong decision. And this is.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 17, 2019 16:08:57 GMT
But we made that decision in 2016.
A stupid referendum process I agree and an unfortunate result but those in power only have themselves to blame. The majority of people showed the south-east what they thought of them. London is no longer representative of the UK; it is another country and that is the problem. The people who built the UK up into a great power via the Industrial Revolution felt ignored and told those in power to stop ignoring them. It is a pity that the referendum was the way in which that feeling was expressed.
Too late now. LibDems could have done something but their policies/leadership are weak or too similar to Labour. Labour sat on the fence and you can't do that if you want to lead government.
Don't blame people for voting Tory, blame the LibDems and Labour for very poor policies and dreadful campaigning. Caroline Flint was right and Emily Thornberry is a stupid cow.
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