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Post by commerdriver on Dec 17, 2019 16:28:18 GMT
Al, you me, EIII and most people on here, if it comes to that, wanted to remain, a majority of voters in this country voted to leave in 2016 and, rightly or wrongly, pretty well confirmed that last week. Remain is a lost cause unfortunately because no group of people / politicians or whoever could agree what kind of leave or remain we should be looking for.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 17, 2019 16:40:18 GMT
A lost cause, now seemingly with the backing of a majority. And yet we continue. Because.
A category error.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 17, 2019 17:04:34 GMT
Well, the backing of a majority of 46 percent against 53. Funny old world, innit?
It will now happen. It will be a catastrophe in most of the ways we’ve predicted and a few we haven’t. There may be the occasional pleasant surprise. It has been an ugly and shameful business, but I can at least look my children in the eye and tell them used everything I had to oppose it and did not give in to apathy, fatigue or expediency.
Now, when do I get my Spitfire?
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 17, 2019 17:34:37 GMT
There was no majority of people in favour of anything except more disruption in my view. It may or may not be a catastrophe but I will look my children in the eye and know I did what I believed was best for them. And I will look my grandchildren in the eye and look at the history books and will know whether what i did was right or not, and will tell them you can only do what you think is best for those you love. You may be right or wrong you can never know for certain. You can only know with the benefit of history.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 17, 2019 17:46:53 GMT
I still don't think effectively threatening a no deal situation to start negotiations is the starting point we should take. I don't think the analogy of buying a car is right either - we can't just walk away and remain as we are because we'll have already left the EU.
Boris doesn't have to put this into law - unless he's worried a court case forces his hand again and now he's got it into law. I am sure some are looking into that scenario already.
On the other forum, one old poster said today he'd leave this country if he won big on the lottery. Ironically he could leave anyway if we weren't leaving the EU and removing the automatic right to live in another EU country. And he voted to leave. What an idiot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 19:43:26 GMT
The people who built the UK up into a great power via the Industrial Revolution felt ignored and told those in power to stop ignoring them. Those people who delivered the Industrial Revolution aren't feeling much and have not had a voice for a couple of centuries. You can only know with the benefit of history. It's not as if we do not have any history to learn from. I'd start with the Weimar Republic. Hyperinflation, political extremism, fractious relationships - break up of the union anyone ? Boris is going to be a busy little boy.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 17, 2019 20:02:19 GMT
Weimar Republic IMHO a ridiculous comparison
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 20:12:24 GMT
I really hope it ridiculous and we do not go there though, as Boris and Donald tell us, nothing is off the table at this time anything is possible.
Thinking about the car analogy further up the thread, it is not comparible with Brexit and an amicable deal (a sales person will tell you a deal can always be done the question is can it be accepted as palatable to both sides - not many divorces are sorted out evenly and fairly) being done for one simple reason. A car deal and for that matter CETA is between two parties and a common goal. A convergence. Brexit is a divergence, the two parties are moving apart not coming together.
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Post by dixinormus on Dec 17, 2019 21:26:01 GMT
👍🏿 for EIII’s previous post.
Al - maybe people ask about your wife’s accent because they are just curious or as an opening gambit to being friendly? Oh I went on holiday there once... that sort of thing?
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Post by tyrednexited on Dec 17, 2019 21:40:13 GMT
.....a majority of voters in this country voted to leave in 2016 and, rightly or wrongly, pretty well confirmed that last week....... ...I can't see that it is valid to reach that (binary) conclusion from a vote in a multi-faceted General Election. It is entirely possible that a large number of people who voted Tory might well have voted Remain in a properly formulated Remain vs Leave vote, devoid of all the other political implications. Perhaps even yourself, given your professed "remain leanings".
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Post by tyrednexited on Dec 17, 2019 21:44:34 GMT
Now, when do I get my Spitfire? ...it's coming on Santa's sleigh, which is now propelled by unicorns. Don't hold your breath, you've less chance than if someone had despatched you one via Hermes...
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 18, 2019 8:33:33 GMT
"....a majority of voters in this country voted to leave in 2016 and, rightly or wrongly, pretty well confirmed that last week....... ...I can't see that it is valid to reach that (binary) conclusion from a vote in a multi-faceted General Election.
It is entirely possible that a large number of people who voted Tory might well have voted Remain in a properly formulated Remain vs Leave vote, devoid of all the other political implications. Perhaps even yourself, given your professed "remain leanings".
Totally true, but if I were a betting man I would not have bet on a sudden conversion to remain, but then any notion of a properly "formulated Remain vs Leave vote" is fantasy given the level of arguments which would happen, like they did last time..
I totally believe we should not be leaving but that's what the public voted for by a narrow margin, in a yes/no referendum with no required majority which showed the worst of both sides of British politicians and the voting public, none of which nas changed that I can see.
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Post by tyrednexited on Dec 18, 2019 8:47:22 GMT
Totally true, but if I were a betting man I would not have bet on a sudden conversion to remain, but then any notion of a properly "formulated Remain vs Leave vote" is fantasy given the level of arguments which would happen, like they did last time.. I totally believe we should not be leaving but that's what the public voted for by a narrow margin, in a yes/no referendum with no required majority which showed the worst of both sides of British politicians and the voting public, none of which nas changed that I can see. ....aaah. So it's still "the will of the people", because we can't determine the will of the people, even though it might be the most important change in a lifetime which merits a proper assessment of the same. (The argument wasn't with much of the underlying reasons, I just don't like the re-writing of history, or the false assumption that we have correctly re-tested the public's appetite - the last 3 years are littered with such lies leaps of faith) TBH, I'm largely sitting on my hands on this thread, and have been since it started, as there are so many inconsistent and poorly thought-out arguments that could be contested that I think I might blow a gasket if I didn't. Needless to say, I'm in Dubya's and Al's camp, in spades (or should that be Trumps)
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Post by Alanović on Dec 18, 2019 9:12:30 GMT
👍🏿 for EIII’s previous post. Al - maybe people ask about your wife’s accent because they are just curious or as an opening gambit to being friendly? Oh I went on holiday there once... that sort of thing? I do know that. Some are, some aren't. It's the distress of not knowing where it's going to go, it's the uncertainty of that bald, tattooed prick on the Underground - can I speak or should I stay quiet, just in case? That sort of thing. It's vile and contemptible to be in this invidious position. Remember she's from a country which has been vilified for nearly 30 years, one which was the target of Leave campaigning because it's applying to join. Look at those millions of Serbs, gagging to come over here and steal your jobs, abuse your women! We'd just got over that hump, you know "ha, didn't we bomb your country back to the dark ages, ha ha ha, weren't you the bad guys?". Ironically, the UK is now at risk of an acrimonious break up, yet nobody can see any risk or any wrong in our Glorious Sceptered Nation. The English Nationalists rub their hands in glee at getting shot of the Scots, the Irish - and don't think for one second those of us who exhibit our Scots heritage aren't villified and mocked openly. This isn't just banter. I had a friend who voted Leave who gleefully told us he'd help us pack the house to move to Scotland, or anywhere come to that, after the referendum. He wasn't joking and did not retract when asked. Needles to say he's no friend any more. Pah. I used to believe the vast majority of my countrymen were well meaning, welcoming, open minded. Not any more. I have been roundly disabused of that notion and it's only getting worse.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 18, 2019 9:22:18 GMT
46.4%, Vić. That’s all.
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