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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 18, 2019 16:00:36 GMT
By definition, the majority of your countrymen are well meaning, welcoming, open minded.
Firstly they form the populous who did not vote Tory and secondly, those of us on here who did vote Tory and the thousands who also sis but are not on here should be given the same benefit of the doubt as being "well meaning, welcoming and open minded".
Clearly we are, as we are having a civilised discussion and not telling you or Mrs Al to go home. Immigration is a blessing and curse. It depends on why you want it and who comes in. Frankly the country would grind to a halt without most Eastern Europeans working here. But (generalising) do we need any of the Albanians and how come they are allowed in anyway? - all they seem to do is traffic young girls and promote prostitution.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 18, 2019 16:49:53 GMT
EIII, I would agree that we should be given the benefit of the doubt but i would take issue firstly with the 'we are...not telling you or Mrs al to go home", not just are not surely but would not, under any circumstances say anything like that purely on the basis of race/religion or anything similar. Further I would also say that any generalisation based on race/religion etc is out of order. I am genuinely surprised at the discrimination which both you and Al's wife have experienced, I have not personally come across that either personally or even seen directly in several years and am horrified that it is still widespread outside of pubs / football matches or similar situations. Yet I would not expect that my daily personal life in the IT industry, living in the Thames Valley is that much different from yours or Al's. possibly my life is in some way sheltered or Naive.
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Post by Humph on Dec 19, 2019 9:35:57 GMT
Well, next year, and for as far as we can tell, the next few years, will not be without their challenges. We have to trust that buried in amongst it all will also be some opportunities.
It behoves us all to attempt to identify and capitalise on the latter, and to try to minimise any negative effects of the former. I'm not about to roll over and die just because the direction of travel is not my preferred route.
Most of us here are, or have been, in jobs that require us us to adapt to positive or negative change and to direct ourselves, our efforts and those who rely on us to make the right choices, down the best paths.
Trying to hold back the incoming tide will be fruitless, learning to swim in the new water is the only sensible approach.
Anyway, while I know that some here are permanently on holiday, I am so looking forward to a few days off before we have to turn our attention to what happens next.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 19, 2019 10:33:52 GMT
By definition, the majority of your countrymen are well meaning, welcoming, open minded. Firstly they form the populous who did not vote Tory and secondly, those of us on here who did vote Tory and the thousands who also sis but are not on here should be given the same benefit of the doubt as being "well meaning, welcoming and open minded". Clearly we are, as we are having a civilised discussion and not telling you or Mrs Al to go home. Immigration is a blessing and curse. It depends on why you want it and who comes in. Frankly the country would grind to a halt without most Eastern Europeans working here. But (generalising) do we need any of the Albanians and how come they are allowed in anyway? - all they seem to do is traffic young girls and promote prostitution. I have worked in professional environments with Albanians. My son goes to school with Albanian twins whose parents run a much loved and successful restaurant here, it's been going for well over 20 years. Many Albanians here legally are from Kosovo, the ones that I know all came here legally, through ordinary routes, before immigration rules changed after the 2010 election. How come they are allowed in? What sort of question is that? People are entitled to apply for immigration to this country from anywhere, and if they meet the criteria then that's that. What else is there to know? I expect people have been granted immigration to this country from every single nation on Earth at some point. Why are Albanians singled out for particular suspicion? Mrs A is from a deeply unfashionable non-EU country as I've pointed out - and your attitude is exactly that to which she is subjected. Replace Albanian with Serbian in your post. Why are you here? How did you get here? Over and over again. Criminals and undesirables come from all nationalities, all races, all backgrounds. As does illegal immigration. Your traffickers and pimps are most likely in this category, and yet the legitimate and productive are tarred with the same brush, "generalising" or not.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 19, 2019 10:36:44 GMT
EIII, I would agree that we should be given the benefit of the doubt but i would take issue firstly with the 'we are...not telling you or Mrs al to go home", not just are not surely but would not, under any circumstances say anything like that purely on the basis of race/religion or anything similar. Further I would also say that any generalisation based on race/religion etc is out of order. I am genuinely surprised at the discrimination which both you and Al's wife have experienced, I have not personally come across that either personally or even seen directly in several years and am horrified that it is still widespread outside of pubs / football matches or similar situations. Yet I would not expect that my daily personal life in the IT industry, living in the Thames Valley is that much different from yours or Al's. possibly my life is in some way sheltered or Naive. You don't see it, because you're not in the category of people to be on the receiving end of it. It's really that simple. That's how my daily life is that much different from yours.
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Post by Humph on Dec 19, 2019 10:40:29 GMT
Monkey brain stuff. Mistrusting or feeling superior to or threatened by the monkeys who live in the next tree.
Primitive and pointless.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 19, 2019 10:54:10 GMT
Albanians. I see, not Albanians, but Serbs or Kosovans of Albanian origin not tainted by the Hoxha era and the disaster than succeeded it. I understand.
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Post by Alanović on Dec 19, 2019 10:56:22 GMT
What do you understand? That you've now refined your prejudice to a particular subset of "Albanians"?
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Post by Humph on Dec 19, 2019 11:01:23 GMT
May I, respectfully and very gently suggest, that before anyone possibly drifts towards making unnecessary comments about any ethnic or religious groups that they pause and think about it before typing. It's a dangerous subject matter and not really the sort of thing we would want to explore or get too caught up in here I'd suggest.
If that's ok with everyone?
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 19, 2019 11:05:39 GMT
Al, I am probably not going to receive any abuse because i am Scottish, but I work every day with people of all races, looking around me now there are at least 7 or 8 different races from different parts of the world with no issues whatever in working and/or socialising together. i suspect in my case I do not see the racism because of the places i meet people. I repeat you have my sympathy for what little it is worth snd i hope to see the day when our society gets rid of racism in all its forms
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Post by Humph on Dec 19, 2019 11:12:57 GMT
Funny you should say that CD, but as you know I am also Scottish and that does lead to the receipt of a fair old amount of what might be called "banter" from English friends and colleagues. Almost none of it could be regarded as offensive, but very occasionally it drifts in that direction. I have broad shoulders and wouldn't particularly feel intimidated by it even if it was intended to hurt or offend, but I suppose it might give me the tiniest insight into how it is for those who suffer more regular and targeted abuse for such idiotic reasons.
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Post by commerdriver on Dec 19, 2019 11:46:27 GMT
Humph, personally i have found much of the "banter" about being Scottish has died down in recent years I honestly can't remember the last time it was even commented on. Maybe people I work with are getting more PC. I do agree that it's a subject to be careful about on here.
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Avant
Full Member
Posts: 691
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Post by Avant on Dec 19, 2019 12:03:20 GMT
Wise words above indeed. I think it's partly a matter of accepting that we're all equal in the sense of all being human beings; and partly having respect for people we disagree with.
There's something about politics that polarises people: we'd never fall out over one of us preferring an Audi to a Mercedes and the other vice versa, but differing political opinions produce vitriol. Fortunately although SWMBO and I cancelled each other's vote out in 2016 (she for Leave, I for Remain) and indeed also in Tony Blair's three elections, we are still happily married after 45 years.
A very happy Christmas to everyone, whether their celebrations are now or at other times of the year - including those who don't have anything to celebrate but are just glad of a few days off.
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Post by Humph on Dec 19, 2019 12:04:48 GMT
CD, could you maybe put up an Avatar? I can't go on thinking of you as a wee, grey, baldy alien !
😉
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Post by Humph on Dec 19, 2019 12:10:15 GMT
Oh I dunno Avant, I mean, if there's going to be someone driving like a mad thing three feet from your chuff then they are almost certainly going to be in an Audi ! 😉
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