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Post by Alanović on Apr 18, 2017 14:30:58 GMT
My front window, now:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 20:45:48 GMT
Can't do the LibDems myself. They are the least liberal of all the parties, shouting down those who disagree with them and accusing them of racism, misogyny or such like. I'm not a card carrying Tory, but have always voted Tory simply because "Its the economy, stupid" and everyone else does the stupid thing apart from them. The only pity is that my local MP is Labour, but a very very good local issues MP who also has no truck with Corbyn at all. He came into my office last year when we hosted a local business event and was prepared to let me leave a rude message on JC's voicemail using his mobile phone....not that I did.
We remainers have to accept that the majority of the country voted out. This election is a way to cement that decision. It's clever and I hope it works as I think it will work, especially north of the border.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 21:04:29 GMT
I think that Brexit should happen. However stupidly or inadequately understood or badly managed, it was voted for, so there we are.
However, the Tories seem desperate for Brexit *solely* because it keeps the electorate happy. I don't trust them to take difficult decisions, they'll just blow with the wind.
Seems to me it would be best managed by a party which feels strongly on the matter and voices that opinion and is thus more likely to end up with a workable solution.
p.s. I voted "Remain" but that moment has now past. I do not now consider myself a remainer any more than I do a flat earther.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Apr 18, 2017 21:57:17 GMT
I've no idea why anyone who thought last June that leaving the EU is a crazy idea should fall meekly into line now. It can do nothing but harm with no compensatory good, as the efforts to make trade deals with our 'old friends' such as India are already showing. The 'control' we were promised we could take back already exists, and plenty of what Leavers are really afraid of - mostly brown people - had nothing to do with our EU membership in the first place.
In that context, why would any sane person not take any opportunity to support any politician offering to mitigate the damage, or preferably to stop it before it goes any further?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 22:14:18 GMT
Because more than 50% of the country didn't listen last year, will not listen now and to be honest have a pretty fair point when they say its already been voted on.
Also because it is like Pandora's box. Or perhaps closer to Schrödinger's cat. The EU has already irrevocably changed.
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Post by manatee on Apr 18, 2017 23:15:58 GMT
Heisenberg should probably be in there somewhere.
Further to WBD's question, I don't think the premises of it have been established. I also have serious doubts about Tim Farron whom I have never found at all convincing, although if that were a disqualification I probably wouldn't be able to vote at all.
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Post by Hofmeister on Apr 18, 2017 23:24:44 GMT
I've no idea why anyone who thought last June that leaving the EU is a crazy idea should fall meekly into line now. It can do nothing but harm with no compensatory good, as the efforts to make trade deals with our 'old friends' such as India are already showing. The 'control' we were promised we could take back already exists, and plenty of what Leavers are really afraid of - mostly brown people - had nothing to do with our EU membership in the first place. In that context, why would any sane person not take any opportunity to support any politician offering to mitigate the damage, or preferably to stop it before it goes any further? It's no good clinging to the illusion that somehow we can reverse brexit, it's not going to happen, no matter who you vote for. We are on our way out and that's a reality you need to accept. It's all now a matter of doing us the best deal, and the only person placed to do that is May. What she needs is the time space and manoeuvring room to do it, and the best thing for the country is to give her a large mandate to do it, free from pandering to the SEL.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Apr 19, 2017 8:10:06 GMT
'Best deal' for the country? Or for the narrow purposes of the Conservative Party? May has caved in to the Tebbit Tendency - worse even than Cameron did in calling the referendum in the first place - and has been steadily unwinding expectations over Single Market membership, free trade or even getting a 'deal' at all. She's shown herself to be untrustworthy, but you want to hand her an increased majority to make her life easier?
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Post by Alanović on Apr 19, 2017 8:32:25 GMT
Dismayed to hear the acquiescence of intelligent folk like Noggers and Otto. I am unconvinced by the "majority of the country voted out" argument. No. A slight majority of these eligible to vote and who actually voted, voted out - many people who don't normally vote got up and voted because of brown people and funny letters on Polish shop signs, people like some I could name from the other place. I will not acquiesce meekly to the will of these maniacs. The mandate is shaky, the version of the exit being pursued is being run with no regard for the wishes of a substantial minority, there is no compromise being sought, only demands for unity which some seem to be swallowing, which is a shame.
No. I shall support the party arguing most strongly for my view.
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Post by Hofmeister on Apr 19, 2017 9:18:41 GMT
'Best deal' for the country? Or for the narrow purposes of the Conservative Party? May has caved in to the Tebbit Tendency - worse even than Cameron did in calling the referendum in the first place - and has been steadily unwinding expectations over Single Market membership, free trade or even getting a 'deal' at all. She's shown herself to be untrustworthy, but you want to hand her an increased majority to make her life easier? May is the least swively eyed of the loons in the Tory party, all her talk to date has been to keep the extreme SELs on side She is at the end of the day pretty pragmatic was prepared to step up to keep the mop haired and slimy toads out of power, and she is the best viable option we have.
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Post by manatee on Apr 19, 2017 10:58:21 GMT
The mandate is shaky, the version of the exit being pursued is being run with no regard for the wishes of a substantial minority, there is no compromise being sought, only demands for unity which some seem to be swallowing, which is a shame. No. I shall support the party arguing most strongly for my view. The mandate is as shaky as a close, FPTP, result in a general election. We usually have to accept that. A difficulty here is that compromise is difficult. A government with a small majority has to behave itself and probably ditch its most extreme ideas. Brexit, when it comes down to it, means Brexit. A soft Brexit in which the UK accepted the likely conditions that go with being a member of the single market would not be a Brexit at all - it would mean being "in" without even consultative representation, let alone a vote. I can only endorse your statement that you should vote for the party arguing your view. I'm struggling to vote for any of them, although I will pick one in the end so as to qualify for moaning rights.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 11:45:35 GMT
It's going to be an interesting election for the North East. Traditionally a Labour stronghold and also an area which strongly backed Brexit.
The Conservatives look like the only party which will deliver Brexit. The Sunderland dilemma, how do you not vote Conservative and still get full Brexit?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Apr 19, 2017 13:54:37 GMT
So it's on, approved by 522 to 13. Remarkable that Labour voted to allow it when it can only do them harm, but we'll see.
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Post by commerdriver on Apr 19, 2017 14:16:16 GMT
So it's on, approved by 522 to 13. Remarkable that Labour voted to allow it when it can only do them harm, but we'll see. They had no choice - voting against would have been just as bad, a confession that they did not dare face an election They also have to, at least nominally, back Brexit. No politician with any credibility wants to say, you got it wrong folks we need another referendum.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Apr 19, 2017 14:39:13 GMT
On The Desperate Situations principle, I thought they might have looked at the electoral arithmetic and concluded they need the time to get themselves in order - under a new leader - before they're fit for the contest.
May had no answer this morning when asked whether she'd lost a vote in the Commons, or suffered anything that it wasn't the duty of the Opposition to do. There's no constitutional or parliamentary justification for this; it's for pure party advantage, and exactly what the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act was put in place to stop.
May is trying to eliminate opposition; her words yesterday about the country being united but Westminster not, suggest that she thinks that to oppose her is to be irresponsible and unpatriotic. We're used to that sort of language from the Daily Mail, of course, but we shouldn't be hearing it from the prime minister.
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