Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 13:52:20 GMT
No Deal cannot, on any interpretation of the facts, be seen as the least worst option. It is literally the worst option. Only the Tories would take us there. Looks like they did.
The best option, as I've stated before, was doing whatever it took in terms of individual constituency seats, to return a hung Parliament and a non-Tory coalition government. This would have lead to some other outcome than No Deal, and any outcome is better than No Deal. Which is why I voted Labour for the first time in my life, against my standing membership of another party. To make sure a Tory MP wasn't elected.
What Cameron should have done is said fine, we're leaving, through joining EFTA/EEA. End of story, mandate delivered, damage minimised, discussion over, get on with everything else. No further election would have happened until 2020 by which time it would have been buried as an issue, no ERG rubbish to deal with.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 10, 2020 15:07:57 GMT
Yes, exactly Vić. What Johnson sold last year was not the promise of anything good with the EU, because that requires detail and knowledge he has no interest in acquiring. Rather ‘Get Brexit Done’ just meant ‘Get Brexit Over With’, appealing to the ignorant and apathetic who’d just heard more than they could take or understand. They’d bought the simplistic promise of Vote Leave in 2016 and were easy prey for another simplistic message in 2019.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 10, 2020 16:29:44 GMT
No Deal cannot, on any interpretation of the facts, be seen as the least worst option. It is literally the worst option.
I agree with that. But in December 2019 there was no alternative to the Tories that the people would have elected. Those who voted for Brexit (and I remind you I voted to remain despite my dislike of many aspects of the EU project) just wanted it doing at any cost and Boris is giving them that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 16:33:34 GMT
I have described the viable alternative around which we should have all come together to make happen.
Anyway, Happy Hannukah.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 10, 2020 17:22:49 GMT
I think for a lot of the country, including many who voted to leave, the option of just forgetting about leaving and moving on would have appealed. Everyone was so fed up with it all. Quickest way to get past it was just forget we ever had the referendum.
As Al says above though, we could have left and join EFTA/EEA. We'd be out of the EU and therefore Brexit delivered. Too late for that.
The fishermen are hoping for no deal so they can fish for the fish they sell to the EU in greater quantities. But haven't thought through that no deal might mean their customers in the EU don't want the fish at the elevated price. And the holdups in the ports means the fish can't get to the customers quick enough either. Idiots.
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Post by dixinormus on Dec 10, 2020 17:47:57 GMT
But Hey, I read that the government has signed a free trade deal with Singapore today? 🎉
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 18:34:24 GMT
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 10, 2020 18:36:33 GMT
But Hey, I read that the government has signed a free trade deal with Singapore today? 🎉 Yes, equivalent to the one we already have through the EU. Three cheers for breaking even. Presumably you have to fish farther north for frozen haddock. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Dec 10, 2020 20:30:06 GMT
A lot of the fish we catch in our waters will go to France. Probably why France has fishermen want to fish in our waters. But when we can fish it all ourselves there will be nobody to sell it to.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 10, 2020 21:28:12 GMT
Without a trade deal it won’t be possible to land it in time to sell.
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Post by EspadaIII on Dec 10, 2020 21:51:21 GMT
I have described the viable alternative around which we should have all come together to make happen. Anyway, Happy Hannukah. Thank you.... I'm sure I mentioned Latkes in a previous post somewhere. It is now time to eat them.. yum |
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Post by dixinormus on Dec 10, 2020 22:28:25 GMT
Didn’t think there was much fish left in UK waters anyway? Haven’t they been overfished these past 20 years in the EU free-for-all?!
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Post by dixinormus on Dec 13, 2020 7:46:13 GMT
Much hysteria in the Sunday press today? 80% chance of No Deal I hear. One newspaper (loved by Brexiters) now saying it’s all Merkel’s fault?!
I think I’d be stockpiling some tins and preserves just in case of an almighty hangover in January 😬
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Dec 13, 2020 8:33:43 GMT
It was always going to be the fault of Merkel, Macron, von Leyen, Jacques Delors or the Tooth Fairy, wasn’t it? Remember that we only have Brexit at all because of the fabrications of the British press, so they’re hardly going to be volunteering to take the blame now.
The dry stores are still in from last time. But if we don’t want scurvy come February, better start devising ingenious ways to store green vegetables.
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Post by tyrednexited on Dec 13, 2020 9:39:19 GMT
It was always going to be the fault of Merkel, Macron, von Leyen, Jacques Delors or the Tooth Fairy, wasn’t it? ...don't forget the Remainers! There's a special place in the blame history for every one of them. I note a major part of the current rhetoric is along the lines of "any agreement must be fair and respect the fundamental position that the UK will be a sovereign nation in n weeks' time."They don't seem to get the irony that it is exactly that position that is being recognised in the current talks. "By all means make your own laws and regulations, but in areas where that would enable unfair/unsafe trade with our trading bloc, then you must accept use of the same laws, standards and conditions if you still want to trade." I have done some (very) large negotiations in my time. I thought of myself as a hard but reasonable negotiator (you'll always find people who'll dispute the latter, whoever states it), but one key piece of advice I always tried to recognise was dinned into me from early times - "try to understand your opposite side's position and circumstances, and don't try to get them to commit "unnatural acts"". Never say never, but the EU conceding open trading (given its raison d'être) would be just such an "unnatural act". I've never expected such concession, and I still don't think it will happen. Bed, lie in it! (and ready the gunboats!) It's quite interesting reading my motorhome forums; given the travelling profile of the inhabitants (much of it in Europe, and for extended periods, in vehicles much of the build content of which, and more often the build itself, emanates from the EU) the penny has dropped with many even most ardent of them that this is not going to be good news for motorhomers in any shape or form (either travelling or the cost). A small number of rabid Brexiteers, however, are still expecting universal unicorns and widespread sunny uplands, with immediate deliver on 1/1/21 (though none can quantify such a view one iota). |
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