WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 20, 2018 9:03:56 GMT
Wrote the first bit in a hurry before leaving for the station. We are now better to leave, take the shit, and build something different and new which 10 years from now may have got us back to where we are now. How, though? There’s really nothing out there that we couldn’t get as members — as evidenced by the ‘deal’ with South Africa. The numbers simply don’t stack up. The shit that we need to take will be for changing our mind in the face of overwhelming evidence that leaving is an irredeemably stupid, self-destructive idea. Inevitably, some will decide that we are no longer reliable, but more will heave a sigh of relief and quietly shelve their plan to withdraw. Far more than we could ever make up elsewhere, even if the ‘deals’ with Trump’s America, and China and India, were more than delusions. There’s time to stop it, and I don’t really care how. This method seems at the moment to have the best chance. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 15:06:55 GMT
Remember the 'poll tax'? A fair, appropriate method of charging by usage a significant improvement over previous approaches? That was destroyed by a myopic and hysterical minority supported by the media and joined in with by those always in need of a scapegoat.
How is this any different?
There's time to stop it, but to do so would be a disaster. The majority of voters made a decision, we need to go with it, however stupid it is. If nothing else, they will then shut up and keep their heads down for fear of taking responsibility for anything.
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 20, 2018 20:12:55 GMT
Remember the 'poll tax'? A fair, appropriate method of charging by usage a significant improvement over previous approaches? That was destroyed by a myopic and hysterical minority supported by the media and joined in with by those always in need of a scapegoat. How is this any different? If it'd been a simple £5/head a week at today's prices with appropriate relief for those on income related benefit you'd have a point. When local government's income is dependant on government grants subject to political prejudices and it's spending, dependant on local needs, never mind local politics, varies enormously it was bound to be a disaster. The mystery is nobody could see that. There's time to stop it, but to do so would be a disaster. The majority of voters made a decision, we need to go with it, however stupid it is. If nothing else, they will then shut up and keep their heads down for fear of taking responsibility for anything. Depends on how BEANO looks. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 22:24:11 GMT
The Irish border issue is a conundrum. Why was this not flagged by Project Fear as a real stumbling block during the referendum campaign. Admittedly most English (and I use that word deliberately) people couldn't give a stuff about the Northern Irish and probably wish they would become part of the Republic - I know I do. But as the only land border between the UK and EU there must have been some thought to how that would work (or not) post Brexit?
And why the hell are we worried out the Good Friday Agreement 20 years on. If the Republicans want to show they are no longer terrorists, they will accept the outcome of the vote and the consequences. If they can't, the GFA is a sham, we are back to the Troubles and all the economic benefits of the GFA would disappear overnight.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 21, 2018 7:49:34 GMT
Hard to know where to begin with that lot, Esp. We have an agreement that, for 20 years has let people on both sides of the NI sectarian divide feel sufficiently invested not to be easy recruits for the extremists, who have not gone away. And you think we ought simply to be able to tear it up with no fear of consequences?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 21, 2018 8:04:54 GMT
There's time to stop it, but to do so would be a disaster. The majority of voters made a decision, we need to go with it, however stupid it is. No. We don’t. We really don’t. Even the Swiss, who live by referendums, don’t expect every one to be enacted — and their government is scrupulous about laying out the facts beforehand for the voters to make a truly informed decision. Our referendum was a disgrace, which the Leave side corrupted with their lies and illegal spending — without which they would have lost and gone back to fighting each other in car parks. (There was nothing comparable on the Remain side, whatever some might say.) There is nothing in it worth honouring, hence the search for a constitutional means to set it aside. All this is before any consideration of the damage enacting it will do, or the contradictions and undeliverability of the various promises the surviving 16.7m voted for. |
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 21, 2018 9:38:50 GMT
The Irish border issue is a conundrum. Why was this not flagged by Project Fear as a real stumbling block during the referendum campaign. Admittedly most English (and I use that word deliberately) people couldn't give a stuff about the Northern Irish and probably wish they would become part of the Republic - I know I do. But as the only land border between the UK and EU there must have been some thought to how that would work (or not) post Brexit? And why the hell are we worried out the Good Friday Agreement 20 years on. If the Republicans want to show they are no longer terrorists, they will accept the outcome of the vote and the consequences. If they can't, the GFA is a sham, we are back to the Troubles and all the economic benefits of the GFA would disappear overnight. The Irish Border was often mentioned during the campaign. It was raised on this site in one of the initial volumes of this debate. The question was asked during one of the TV debates. Remain speakers pointed out it's potential as a problem. Boris Johnson, speaking for leave, failed to address the issue talking instead, in a suma cum laude piece of 'whatboutery' of the EU's (admitted) failings in another divided country; former Yugoslavia. To be frank I think your attitude to the GFA ignores the facts. The idea that it's 20 years old and can be dispensed with is on of Rees Mogg's lines. The history goes back not just to 68/9 on and 'the Troubles' but to Oliver Cromwell and William III (he of Orange known as King Billy to the loyalists). Partition and the current border arise from the UK's Government of Ireland Act 1921. The current set up where the border exists but is open, just like a Schengen border, is part of the constructive ambiguity that allows both sides to claim they've won. I don't see Sinn Fein going back to IRA era but there are plenty of splinter groups who don't recognise GFA who are still active. Don't underestimate Loyalism's capacity to stir up trouble either. Their Loyalty is conditional on getting their own way; see Sir Edward Carson and the late Ian Paisley's attempts to emulate him in the nineties. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 14:04:55 GMT
The alternative is that Northern Ireland becomes independent. The majority of the UK clearly are not bothered about the GFA to give it much value in weighing up their vote in the referendum. As a remainer; it did not cross my mind for even a microsecond and I don't think it woud have stopped me voting for Leave had I chosen to do so.
I am deliberately being controversial now...Deveil's Advocate etc.. I am aware of some NI history; The classic invasion forces (Protestant) taking over the administration of a country to the disadvantage of the natives. Most countries got independence, so why was Ireland split and more importantly, should it not be joined and occupying forces return to the homeland?
I am no Sinn Fein lover but it seems to be that the Loyalists are anything but. They are like the Japanese soldier coming out of the jungle in 1955 wondering if WW2 was over. They need to go home...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 14:52:41 GMT
>>There is nothing in it worth honouring,
52% of the country disagree(d) with you.
Anyway, I think that for me arguing Brexit in more than one forum is too much. So I'll step back a bit.
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 21, 2018 18:46:01 GMT
Remember the 'poll tax'? A fair, appropriate method of charging by usage a significant improvement over previous approaches? That was destroyed by a myopic and hysterical minority supported by the media and joined in with by those always in need of a scapegoat. It was also almost impossible to collect as people disappeared in a way land/property cannot. A few Cabinet Ministers tried to spell out the truth but achieved little other than to *Naughty word* up their own careers. Anthony King and Ivor Crewe's book The Blunders of our Governments givesit the full treatment. |
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 21, 2018 19:13:45 GMT
Remember the 'poll tax'? A fair, appropriate method of charging by usage a significant improvement over previous approaches? That was destroyed by a myopic and hysterical minority supported by the media and joined in with by those always in need of a scapegoat. It was also almost impossible to collect as people disappeared in a way land/property cannot. A few Cabinet Ministers tried to spell out the truth but achieved little other than to *Naughty word* up their own careers. it also hit working class Tories. Anthony King and Ivor Crewe's book The Blunders of our Governments gives it the full treatment. |
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 24, 2018 7:40:45 GMT
How, incidentally, was the Poll Tax fair? It was regressive, in that it took no account of ability to pay, so it penalized those on low incomes and benefited the well-off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 12:59:08 GMT
>>There is nothing in it worth honouring, 52% of the country disagree(d) with you. Anyway, I think that for me arguing Brexit in more than one forum is too much. So I'll step back a bit. At the risk of coming over all Zero, they can't all be alive over there still, surely? Someone must have strangled at least one horrible old bastard with his worn-out Spanish fleece by now, or beaten another one to death with a bag his smokeless fuel? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 13:00:43 GMT
>>they can't all be alive over there still, surely?
No particular change.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 13:03:50 GMT
Decision to avoid 100% vindicated.
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