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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 6:49:53 GMT
I'll get as close to your question as I can. I'll let you know how it goes. I asked it, not sure you'll like the answer. Or be surprised. Thanks for sharing. No real surprises in the résumé of his comments. It mirrors my views as a reluctant remainer. A second referendum can only work if the question is very detailed about every impact leaving would have, both positive and negative. Why are we surprised about the EU's attitude to us? They may blink when the German car industry gets worried but even that's unlikely. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 8:06:30 GMT
We are surprised by the EU's attitude to us because we have failed to understand that we are attempting to negotiated with a set of rules. Rules which wee were instrumental in creating, despite serial misinformation from Leavers about never having a say, mainly to our great benefit. We can't cancel our golf club subscription and still expect to enjoy the benefits of membership. Benefits which the Leave campaign completely denied ever existed, focussing only on the "money out" rather then the revenue and non-financial benefits which flow back our way. Benefits which people are now, finally, twigging after 40 years of misinformation from press and politicians.
The greatest obscenity and absurdity of the government's position now is to be trumpeting and celebrating the "end of freedom of movement". That's the end of my freedom, your freedom, my children's freedom, your children's freedom and opportunity.
Damn them all to hell, the weasling bunch of shitgibbons. *Naughty word* them. *Naughty word* them into the sun. Then bring them back and do it again.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 13:55:45 GMT
"Damn them all to hell, the weasling bunch of shitgibbons."
Yes, I think that pretty much covers it, and nicely put as well.
We had issues with the EU because for years the weasling bunch of shitgibbons put no effort into the EU beyond using it as a retirement home for politicians we'd rather not read about every day.
It doesn't matter now, but we could have fixed it from inside and ended up with a very favourable position. I had a conversation at the time with a collection of European politicians and Ambassadors where the statement was that whilst very few of our demands were accepted by all countries, *all* of our demands were supported by at least some other members.
If we'd held the referendum and our leaving as a threat, and paid intelligent intention, we could have really achieved something.
An opportunity lost, and not one that will occur again.
I think another thing that people are missing is the impact on future economic or investment decisions. It's not just stuff moving away form the UK, which to an extent we can address. It is future stuff that will never come here in the first place because there is no incentive to come here, and undoubted risk.
e.g. One can argue about whether or not someone will remove a manufacturing plant from the UK, perhaps not. But do we honestly believe that anybody will build a new one in the future?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 14:00:25 GMT
Nope. There is a story in the press this week about Mercedes-Benz deciding not to move some production to the UK.
Sigh.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 14:02:29 GMT
"Thanks for sharing. No real surprises in the résumé of his comments."
You're welcome.
Though I don't entirely agree about the no surprises. I guess the facts were a bit obvious, but the perspectives were less so.
His attitude and thinking around the referendum, the Exit deal, the Irish border and the GE I thought were very interesting. Even more so if you think his thoughts are common to other ministers.
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 6, 2018 10:32:23 GMT
The greatest obscenity and absurdity of the government's position now is to be trumpeting and celebrating the "end of freedom of movement". That's the end of my freedom, your freedom, my children's freedom, your children's freedom and opportunity. Did you hear the PM's interview on the Today programme earlier in week? A classic example of her Maybot mode; the phrase end to free movement must have been repeated half a dozen times. Nothing new or material added. The notion that the referendum is the B all and End all is not unique to remain Tories, it has adherents in the Labour Party too. Interesting to note on news today that the Tory Whips are now working 'across the floor' to try and convince Labour, or at least some of its MPs, to back whatever deal emerges in next week or two. Seems to be being expressed as their 'patriotic duty' so as to save us from 'no deal'. I don't think anybody can be certain as to Parliamentary arithmetic on a vote. Whatever the Fixed Term Parliaments Act says about 2/3 majority a defeat on the deal would leave her completely untenable. Either an Election would be forced, probably with minimum legal time from declaration to poll or some form of Unity Government could emerge. Either of those would be sufficient for EU to extend A50 deadline. We desperately need more time whether via the 'transition period' or A50 extension. I don't think crash out would necessarily be the corollary of rejection. The PM's focus on Corbyn in her conference address tells us she now sees him as a real threat. Three years ago Corbyn as PM was unthinkable. She thought that too, hence the snap GE. Unless she can break out of Maybot he will be much more effective in a campaign. He's learned a lot about TV interviews in last three years and he's always been a street orator. While I'd much rather have Starmer or Lammy as leader Corbyn PM is a real possibility. Lots of talk in last 48hours of Canada +++ but that requires a NI/EI border. Those who say it's overblown or even that we should tear up Good Friday Agreement or playing with fire. I suspect though that most likely outcome will be a ball of fudge to be further kicked down the road during a transition period. |
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Post by Humph on Oct 6, 2018 11:06:52 GMT
Now here you go again, you say
You want your freedom
Well who am I to keep you down
It's only right that you should
Play the way you feel it
But listen carefully to the sound
Of your loneliness
Like a heartbeat drives you mad
In the stillness of remembering what you had
And what you lost...
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Post by tyrednexited on Oct 6, 2018 13:02:39 GMT
....don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone....... (...and anyone thinking of replying, Hotel California has already been used  ) |
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 19, 2018 16:08:36 GMT
Big day out in London tomorrow. Yes, I’ll be on the People’s Vote demo, not because another vote is my preferred solution, but because it seems to be the most effective disruptor at the moment. Even BBC News is paying it some attention — in contrast to my last outing 18 months ago — which suggests that the Nick Robinson Orthodoxy, that leaving is a done deal and it’s just a matter of how, is finally crumbling.
Should be a nice day, at least. Boy2 is missing judo to come with me, reasoning that his whole future may be a little more important. And we can go to Wagamama afterwards. I like Wagamama. 🥣
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 17:14:33 GMT
Whilst doing some quite detailed research for something else entirely, I have had cause to read a few weeks of various red top tabloids.
Enlightening.
It is another planet of vitriol and hatred based upon dragging anything and everything down to a level that plankton can feel comfortable and unchallenged by.
Truly. I didn't realise just how embedded bigotry in general, racism and jingoism in particular, and malicious manifestations of overall jealousy and envy in all it's glory had become.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 19, 2018 18:30:17 GMT
First resort of the demagogue is to give the rabble someone to feel superior to and to be threatened by. We’ve had a lot of that lately.
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 19, 2018 19:21:25 GMT
Big day out in London tomorrow. Yes, I’ll be on the People’s Vote demo, not because another vote is my preferred solution, but because it seems to be the most effective disruptor at the moment. Even BBC News is paying it some attention — in contrast to my last outing 18 months ago — which suggests that the Nick Robinson Orthodoxy, that leaving is a done deal and it’s just a matter of how, is finally crumbling. Should be a nice day, at least. Boy2 is missing judo to come with me, reasoning that his whole future may be a little more important. And we can go to Wagamama afterwards. I like Wagamama. 🥣 I'm on that one too. More likely Belgo afterwards rather than Wagamamma though. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 19:32:28 GMT
Is the point to get a second referendum? Because I certainly don't support that. What would it achieve? Best case 51/49 remain, it won't have moved more than that. That won't solve anything.
If you want to stop it, bring down the Government and force a GE. I'm not sure even that would work, but at east it is possible.
I genuinely think there is no easy way back. Even if we cancelled it tomorrow we might make people's lives easier, but the economy, expansion, reputation and the likelihood of inward investment are fucked and will stay that way for years to come. We have lost people's trust. The one thing, more than anything else, that businesses need and want is consistent, predictable, stability. Ad we are no longer predictable with a known risk factor over a 10 - 20 year time period.
We are now better to leave, take the shit, and build something different and new which 10 years from now may have got us back to where we are now.
Ironically those who voted leave are those most likely to be hurt by it. But the problem is you are not needing to convince business men and internationally mobile people. You are trying to convince Daily Mail readers who, other than their 2 week holiday in Torremolinos have no international interest. What they do have are problems, and given the pretty solid state of the UK economy they have two choices;
1) Admit they screwed it up themselves and it's all their own fault
2) Blame the Foreigners.
Good luck with changing that position.
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Post by bromptonaut on Oct 19, 2018 20:54:35 GMT
A second referendum is not a re-match, it's about the deal on offer. Like WDB I don't regard it as ideal, but a better way out than anything else on offer. Thirty five percent of the population are vehemently pro-brexit and will regard themselves as cheated; risk of civil unrest accepted.
The Daily Mail point is interesting. Change of editor since last time and Geordie Grieg is not the vehement leaver Paul Dacre was. Possible he might push line that having stared into abyss we're better off (or at least less worse off) than reality of out.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Oct 20, 2018 8:23:49 GMT
I agree with Otto that much damage is already done. But the time to start fixing it is now, by not leaving. There is nothing better to be had outside — if there was, Liam ‘It’ll Be Easy’ Fox would have found it by now.
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