Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 18:23:17 GMT
Some will cling to memories of a lost world, some are ready to enjoy the new one. And some have experience three years with a hybrid and are thinking one last hurrah while the collective auto industry push for the next generation of whatever form the car is going to morph into. There's no denying a shift from oil based fuel to at least oil based plus something else is happening, as ever tomorrow will have newer, better, shiny.
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Post by Humph on Jul 7, 2017 18:42:49 GMT
...and there are those of us who are delighted to remain unreconstructed for as long as we can. 😎
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Avant
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Post by Avant on Jul 7, 2017 19:35:31 GMT
....and will stay unreconstructed for as long as the car industry is unreconstructed about pricing.
An A3 e-tron for example costs about £8,000 more than a petrol automatic A3 1.5, so would take forever to pay for itself by fuel saving. And a VW E-up is over twice the price of even the most expensive petrol Up.
People aren't going to pay their own money, still less their company's, just to be environmentally correct. But they might move to EVs or hybrids if they were priced sensibly and held their value better.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Jul 7, 2017 21:39:27 GMT
But aren't you assuming that today's technology will continue to cost as little as it does today? Look at Humph's tax problem: what was viable as a company car ten years ago is barely so today and will not be at all in another five years. The same will happen, more gradually, to private ownership of large fossil cars. Meanwhile, the electric alternatives will be priced and taxed to be more attractive - until, of course, we reach the tipping point at which electric cars are the predominant type, at which point the tax burden will have to shift on to them, and the incentives will focus on car sharing and congestion reduction.
It's not just technologies that move on; economies do too.
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Avant
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Post by Avant on Jul 7, 2017 22:20:38 GMT
Agreed - I'm just saying that the manufacturers (and component makers too) have to move before buyers will. Maybe that leasing deal offered to Alanovic on a Leaf, despite its high list price and rubbish residuals, is a start in that direction.
Actually the technological breakthrough we need is for remote charging of EVs to be possible. The advantages of EVs, and the environmental need for them, are strongest in town and cities, where most people have to park on the street - where as we've discussed before, charging by cable is a no-no.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Jul 7, 2017 22:45:04 GMT
I'd have ordered a Passat GTE but not being able to charge it every/most nights meant I'd only benefit in reduce taxation. Maybe next car.
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Post by lygonos on Jul 7, 2017 23:26:47 GMT
Just over 1500 miles in the B Class.
Fuel cost £0.00
Has a black headlining which the missus doesn't like (despite plenty of headroom) - must be a wimmin thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 8:58:43 GMT
But aren't you assuming that today's technology will continue to cost as little as it does today? Look at Humph's tax problem: what was viable as a company car ten years ago is barely so today and will not be at all in another five years. The same will happen, more gradually, to private ownership of large fossil cars. Meanwhile, the electric alternatives will be priced and taxed to be more attractive - until, of course, we reach the tipping point at which electric cars are the predominant type, at which point the tax burden will have to shift on to them, and the incentives will focus on car sharing and congestion reduction. It's not just technologies that move on; economies do too. The part I've highlighted isn't this what road pricing is about ? I've seen figures of about £30bn / year tax take from motor vehicle fuel for the Government. Your household meter doesn't know if it's a kettle or computer or car drawing the power or what the breakdown is by combination so shift the tax take to the distance covered by a vehicle rather than on the fuel used.
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Post by tyrednexited on Jul 8, 2017 9:20:33 GMT
......so shift the tax take to the distance covered by a vehicle rather than on the fuel used. ....agreed, though under mixed-use conditions I suspect it would be implemented on a combination of distance AND fuel.
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Post by lygonos on Jul 8, 2017 10:35:56 GMT
Fuel duty is, by and large, a non-progressive tax, ie. the burden is similar for rich and poor alike.
A similar form of taxation would be increasing VAT on electricity bills from 5% to 20%.
I doubt it would be politically easy though.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Jul 9, 2017 7:05:07 GMT
If technology gets us to the point where electricity to power road vehicles comes without an environmental price, there'll be no need to tax 'road' electricity any higher than 'household' electricity. At which point, yes, it makes more sense to tax the use of the vehicle directly, because that's where the remaining environmental and societal costs lie.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Jul 26, 2017 15:33:05 GMT
Just doing a bit of maths on the Leaf. My electricity rate is 9.05p per kwh. Battery is 24kwh. So cost to charge from empty = 9.05 x 24 = £2.17, right? I reckon about £40 quid a month if so considering my mileage.
I'm sitting on an online chat with my energy supplier. They're taking an awful long time to answer the question, and doing everything possible to avoid it. Is it much more difficult than my assumption above?
.......25 mins later, they will have to contact the billing team and it may take some time to get a calculation. Blimey. I seem to have asked the world's most difficult question.
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Post by crankcase on Jul 26, 2017 17:08:20 GMT
Nearly. Depending on the charger you use, it will be more or less efficient. So in fact to "fill" 24 kWh is likely to take 26 or 27.
At worst, just under £3 a fill is what I reckon for the Zoe, at home. Reality is with mixing in a combination of free chargers in various places on our travels and some cheeky free charging at destinations like my mum's with a mains plug, it's considerably less.
So even at worst, you're looking at say £3 per 100 miles, to compare with your ICE costs. Probably less, possibly nothing at all.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Jul 26, 2017 22:18:52 GMT
The biggest saving for me if I'd gone for the Passat GTE was fuel. But I work from home most of the time (hence low local mileage) but I couldn't safely charge on the street. Getting it into the garage and out would be a faff (assuming it even fits). And then occasionally do much longer journeys. I might need to go to the north east from Manchester for a funeral next week. I say might - I want to go but work will need to be able to give me time off.
Interesting item in the FAQs for the P&O Ferries site. If you have an electric car, make sure it's charged before you take it onboard because there are no charging facilities on the car decks. So you might need to spend time topping up before getting on the ship. And maybe a full charge when you get off before commencing the journey.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Jul 27, 2017 9:37:57 GMT
Nearly. Depending on the charger you use, it will be more or less efficient. So in fact to "fill" 24 kWh is likely to take 26 or 27. At worst, just under £3 a fill is what I reckon for the Zoe, at home. Reality is with mixing in a combination of free chargers in various places on our travels and some cheeky free charging at destinations like my mum's with a mains plug, it's considerably less. So even at worst, you're looking at say £3 per 100 miles, to compare with your ICE costs. Probably less, possibly nothing at all. Hmm. Thanks. BG have now responded to me by email, flatly refusing to give any kind of figure. Laughable.
My usage pattern would suggest that I'd only really ever charge a car at home, there's no facility at work and a charge would get me there and back via school and railway station, probably with some charge, maybe up to 20%, remaining. We shop at Lidl and they have no charging points, so use of public chargers would be near zero. Rarely visit "town" for multi stories with those facilities. Anyway, don't they charge you (financially as well as electrickery) now?
My numbers stack up with a £2ish per day, 5 days-a-week charge, but start to fail at £3 a day.
Hmm.
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