Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 17, 2024 21:37:56 GMT
There is a huge deficit for motoring and it needs to be covered and the road fund licence is not it. At the moment we effectively have a distance driven levy in the UK for road use - i.e. the tax element on fuel. Which you can't do the same for EVs because they are charged at home etc. And the VAT on electric at home is less in %age terms than the VAT added onto the cost of fuel + tax.
And black boxes or whatever won't cut it either really because who pays for that and I'm sure there's a way of getting around that, e.g. spoofing location so the car never moves according to the black box.
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bpg
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Post by bpg on Mar 17, 2024 22:04:56 GMT
The mileage charge also discourages living outside conurbations exacerbating the problem. Which brings me back to my something is afoot comment, restricting personal movement.
Edit: you could always raise the VAT on home electric to 30% would raise about £27bn plus set the VAT at fast charging stations to 30% that would help offset the shortfall. While you're at it, force home owners to switch from gas/oil to heat pumps. That will pretty much cover the shortfall.
Now, we just need the infrastructure to support this. I know, set the standard rate to £1/kW and a daily standing charge of £1 should help. Use drones to calculate who has solar panels and charge 50% more on council tax for those properties. Happy days.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 18, 2024 7:25:15 GMT
All this while keeping Road Fuel Duty frozen to appease the Daily Mail?
Times change; tobacco duty isn’t the earner it was, but that’s not a reason to encourage people back to the fags. EVs start to lose their tax advantages from 2025, paying the London Congestion Charge (rightly) like everyone else and rising two points a year on the BIK scale. But don’t lose sight of the truth, that EVs are part of the solution and people still need help over the financial hurdles to adopting them.
I missed the previous page. I don’t agree that fossil engines are out of the picture yet; should be but are clinging on because nobody in government wants to deliver that news — to the public or to the oil industry.
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bpg
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Post by bpg on Mar 18, 2024 8:05:00 GMT
I think the RFD freeze is a manipulation by a cynical government in election year not stoking inflation.
Also, what would be the benefit of raising petrol and diesel to say £2 per litre ? The 3+ car households might get rid of one, the low income carers might call it a day as not worth the effort, the catering industry, restaurants, bars etc will see clientele fall further as the taxi ride home will cost more than the rest of the night out.
I'm not sure collapsing the economy further to clean up air pollution is the way forward.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 18, 2024 8:45:17 GMT
Isn’t that part of the problem, though? As with domestic heating, we regard the old fossil way as the only way, so instead of encouraging the adoption of genuine alternatives — mandating them, even — we backslide to fossils because anything else is regarded as delivering bad news.
New technology and new services could and should be huge earners. Instead we do the petty Tory thing of looking at the cost and ignoring the benefits.
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bpg
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Post by bpg on Mar 18, 2024 9:06:45 GMT
I don't think there's any backsliding as much as people, other than the early adopters, wishing to see the technology prove itself.
Installing a heat pump system at around 40,000€ to double annual heating bills based on current rates with double digit inflation is causing people to stop and think about finances is not backsliding.
If there is an economy of scale with these things then why would you rush out to do it now ? Similar to EspIII friend and their EV. That's not backsliding, that's people being fiscally responsible with the resources they have.
If air pollution/quality in a city is toxic to public health should we not stop more people entering the zone on a daily basis ? Herding people in on trains, buses and yes, cars, any car is contributing to the problem. People are the polluters, they consume food and drinks in packaging, require shelter, heat, air con, somewhere to park a car if that's how they've travelled. It all adds up.
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Post by Humph on Mar 18, 2024 9:11:13 GMT
Altruism is an easy position to take for those who can afford it. Less so for those who can’t.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 18, 2024 9:33:21 GMT
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Post by Humph on Mar 18, 2024 9:38:11 GMT
Sorry, didn’t think it would require a dictionary. Never mind eh?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 18, 2024 10:35:07 GMT
Funnily enough, I have a dictionary. It doesn’t make your meaning any clearer. 🤓
Yes, many people have extremely limited room to make decisions. That’s where governments come in — altruism writ large, if you like.
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Post by dixinormus on Mar 25, 2024 18:58:29 GMT
Do EVs pay road tax in the UK yet? Their exemption in NZ ends next week. The government here is also implementing the tax - at a lower rate - for hybrids, which has upset a lot of people because hybrids are already paying tax on the petrol they consume!
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 25, 2024 19:33:12 GMT
EVs do not pay road tax yet but will do from April 2025. So you'd pay the same for a full EV as I will for a 2.5 litre petrol. But if the EV was over £40k when delivered (i.e. list price including options) they are also liable for the additional road tax fee for the first 5 years. too. So that benefit for having an EV in terms of total cost of ownership will be taken away. As will at some point will exemption from London congestion charge. And rightly so for that because it's a congestion and not an emission based charge.
The saving was real whilst it lasted, and it lasted for quite a number of years.
Hybrids are taxed here for road fund licence/road tax too. And will pay the tax and VAT on the fuel when it's used. Except you can avoid the latter if you only use electric. With so many new hybrids now quoting ranges of 60+ miles a lot of travel could be on electric alone. I know mine would.
EDIT: The supplement for cars over £40k is for cars registered after April 2025.
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bpg
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Post by bpg on Mar 25, 2024 21:39:27 GMT
Over here, to the end of 2030 each new EV is free to use on the roads, that's ten years free for us as the car was registered November 2020.
After that it's based on weight in three bands: 0 - 2000 kgs @ 5.625 per 200kgs 2001 - 3000 kgs @ 6.01 per 200kgs 3001 - 3500 kgs @ 6.30 per 200kgs
They round up, my car weighs 1,875kgs or thereabouts. 1875/200 = 9.375 ca. 10 10 x 5.625 = €56.25
The legislator then allows a rounding so that would become €56.
I think the eSoul will be a much more popular car once the tax element kicks in, that's less than my motorbike.
Edit: I expect the Maut system used for HGVs on the Autobahn network will be extended to cars to make up any shortfall in tax revenues.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 25, 2024 23:39:10 GMT
… road fund licence/road tax… At the risk of being called peevish or pedantic, it’s Vehicle Excise Duty. Why does it matter? Because it’s a duty on the special privilege of using a vehicle, not some admission fee for the right to use roads. Calling it ‘Road Tax’ encourages Certain Elements to believe they’ve bought a special entitlement over road users without vehicles, and so have the right to mistreat them. Every cyclist knows about this, so the terminology matters. …pay the tax and VAT on the fuel when it's used. Except you can avoid the latter if you only use electric... Except that there is VAT on electricity, and at the full 20 percent for public charging. My relatively inefficient CLS costs about 10p a mile in fuel duty and VAT, a smaller fossil car 7-8p. Charged at a 79p motorway point, my i3 costs more like 3-4p: less, but far from zero. And there is (to stretch the point a little) VED on EVs too. I have to do a renewal each year for mine — just at, for a little longer, a rate of £0. EDIT: The supplement for cars over £40k is for cars registered after April 2025. Which may well create another artificial rupture in the EV market, not that anyone buying a £50,000 car ought to worry about a few quid in duty.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 26, 2024 0:48:07 GMT
I deliberately said road tax instead of VED for you to respond. I really did If not you one of the others. I carried on using road tax because Dixi did from NZ. And yes VAT at 20% on public charging which you probably do very little of on any fast chargers (rather than say hotel destination chargers which might be free). The VED supplement for cars above £40k will be interesting to see pan out - because a lot of larger EVs are at that price point without being a premium car. And it is paid for the first 5 years. So buy a 2 year old EV that was above £40k new, you pay the extra even if the car has depreciated a lot. I must admit I've not worked out how much fuel duty and VAT our cars cost per mile.
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