Avant
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Post by Avant on Nov 15, 2018 16:20:45 GMT
Mrs A is a brave lady. There must have been a lot of unfair prejudice to overcome.
Coming back to A-levels, unless the boy or girl has definitely decided on going into a 'relevant' career - e.g. medicine or engineering - grades matter more than subjects. In the last 12 years of my career I recruited trainees for a large firm of accountants. The accountancy profession genuinely doesn't mind what subjects candidates have done, either at A-level or university - provided that they have enough numeracy to grasp the principles of bookkeeping and accounting. A good grade at GCSE maths is enough if they haven't done maths A-level.
But with many applicants for few places, UCAS points, although by no means a perfect measure, were our main criteria for granting or not granting an interview. When I represented the ICAEW at careers fairs, I would say to students that they should do A-levels in the subjects they thought they'd be good at. They'd enjoy them more and get better grades then if they followed subjects that they thought they ought to do.
It's also a good thing that - despite the current government's characteristic bungling with the levy - apprenticeships are on the way back after 50 years of employers favouring graduates. If you know at 18 what you want to do, and have a talent for it, go for it: you won't be a 2nd-class citizen just because you're not a graduate. But if you don't know - or even if you do, you still want to take the academic subjects further - then university will suit you and it's still a great opportunity to mature in all sorts of ways.
Methinks the younger Beest has got it right: better 300+ UCAS points in drama, French and English than CDE in accountancy, economics and maths. Good luck to him.
PS - absolutely agree with Humph about the merits of learning other languages - maybe one properly rather than too many. I can get along in French and German, but neither fluently, and I wish I'd just done one of them and done it better.
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WDB
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Nov 15, 2018 16:36:30 GMT
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Post by WDB on Nov 15, 2018 16:36:30 GMT
Maths, Phys, Chem will get you anywhere. That’s what the other one is doing — Further Maths too. But that’s the track he’s always been on, and I fully expect him to win and enjoy a place on a top-tier Engineering course. (He already has an unconditional offer from one Russell Group uni.) I wouldn’t force Boy2 down the same road — he’s a far more social and empathetic animal, and I think those qualities will inform his life and career choices. But I do think he will need maths more than he needs English Literature. And he can do it, with French for networking and Drama for practical skills —and fun.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Nov 15, 2018 16:39:33 GMT
CDE. Wow. Those were my exact A level grades. 1988. French, German and Economics, in that order. Got a place at Nottigham University, having missed my first choice, Sheffield, by a grade on each subject. I rejected offers from Exeter, Birmingham and one other whose name escapes me right now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 16:42:54 GMT
Economics, Applied Maths & Stats, Law and English Lit. at A-Level.
Exactly on the basis of choosing what I was good at rather than having the slightest clue about what I was going to do. And if I'd tried to guess I would have been wrong.
Education is all about bringing oneself choices.
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Post by Humph on Nov 15, 2018 16:58:36 GMT
English, German and Biology for me. I had a place at Stirling to do marine biology, but for some reason I changed my mind and did business studies at Edinburgh instead.
Hated it frankly, but I was quite good at it I suppose, and ended up with a job in "business". But I'd much rather have been a marine biologist. To this day I've always preferred being outdoors to in.
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WDB
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Nov 15, 2018 17:08:10 GMT
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Post by WDB on Nov 15, 2018 17:08:10 GMT
For the record, I agree with Humph and Avant on languages and attitudes. And I’ve probably benefited from French being much my strongest modern language, although I wish I’d made a more concerted effort with German at an earlier age; much as I’m enjoying learning now, it’s hard work at 50.
O-level Latin helps. Not for the fabled conversations on early-20th century trains; the modern equivalents are in English, of course. But I can read most things in Spanish, Portuguese, Italian or even Romanian without too much difficulty. And knowing my dative from my genitive makes even German grammar less intimidating.
I’m all for Do What You Enjoy — or would have been ten years ago. But I think we’re on the brink of a massive upheaval in the world of employment, driven by artificial intelligence, that will decimate many traditional careers — including accountancy. The winners will be those with the numeracy to understand and control the new world, combined with the human skills that the machines can’t (yet) replace.
Oh, Maths, Chemistry, Biology, then Biological Sciences at Birmingham. Loved it, and it shaped my thinking and my outlook, even though I decided professional science wasn’t for me. And the prose style I still use was greatly shaped by my first-year tutor in the Genetics department. Scientific writing has a beautiful conciseness.
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Post by Humph on Nov 15, 2018 17:12:02 GMT
I've decided to become a paid gigolo on cruise ships. I already have a dinner suit and I believe you can get hair dye for men. Just need to clear it with Mrs H.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Nov 15, 2018 17:52:34 GMT
I originally was going to do Maths, Computing and Craft Design Technology (a bit of design, woodwork, metalwork, etc) as A Levels. But realised that to do Computer Science at most universities needed Physics. So I did maths, computing, and physics. Computing was not necessary and chemistry might have been a stronger A level but the teacher that did the A level classes was rubbish.
Got where I wanted (thankfully Cambridge didn't offer a place as it was not right for me). Still in/near Manchester after all this time.... 29 years!
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Avant
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Post by Avant on Nov 15, 2018 18:00:05 GMT
Interesting, WDB - you're probably right, given that I've been out of recruiting for four years and you're a senior manager. But is dependence on AI going to be the right direction?
I'm thinking of the well-publicised recent failings of the auditing profession: I can't see that any of them would have been prevented by any amount of AI, or data analytics, or any other computerised audit techniques. The businesses in question either issued defective accounts (e.g. Tesco) or failed altogether (e.g. BHS, Carillion) and this was the result of either fraud or incompetence (or both) by the directors - i.e. human failing.
I was talking the other day to two high-calibre ACAs who work for my publishers, both fairly reently moved from auditing with big-4 firms. Neither were at any time asked to consider the motivation of their clients' management - what is really on their agenda? To be fair, most directors don't set out to be fraudsters. But they are put under pressure by such as banks, parent companies, institutional investors, for results NOW. DSo tempting to skew the figures a bit so that no-one notices, but profit and cash flow look a bit better than they really are (year 1)....quite a lot better (year 2)....pure fiction (year 3).
My worry is that no amount of extra numeracy is going to help professionals understand human beings. You're absolutely right about 'human skills that the machines can't (yet) replace'. Will they ever?
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WDB
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Nov 15, 2018 18:14:32 GMT
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Post by WDB on Nov 15, 2018 18:14:32 GMT
That’s the critical point, isn’t it? The machines are very good at answering questions, but whether the answers are useful will depend on whether they’re asked the right questions. Douglas Adams got that right 40 years ago.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Nov 15, 2018 18:20:55 GMT
I haven't been involved in interviews etc for a while but some terrible candidates got through to interview. It was a bit embarrassing to be interviewing them to be honest - clearly not suitable.
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Post by bromptonaut on Nov 15, 2018 21:32:20 GMT
Sixth form options evening at Boy2’s school. Himself had various ideas of what he might want to do, but he’s come home with a list reading Drama, French and English. I don’t want to interfere — but how will he eat? Mrs B, a retired teacher, says we've lost the f*cking plot with A levels and degrees. Sure there are vocational degrees of which obvious one is medicine. But for most others why not do a subject you fancy? The Lad did History, Music and Philosophy/Ethics for A level followed by a Degree in History and Philosophy. He's now earning a crust in the Home Office. Daughter did History, English and Biology at A-level followed by a degree in History and Politics (and a Masters in History). She's now Executive Assistant to member of board in a major subsidiary of the NHS. Plenty of Judges who's first degree was not law.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 23:05:53 GMT
Indeed. I have told Son#2 who wants to be an accountant that he is better off with degree he enjoys; so he is going to do engineering. At least that way he has a knowledge base he could use for an alternative career.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Nov 16, 2018 8:51:16 GMT
English, German and Biology for me. I had a place at Stirling to do marine biology, but for some reason I changed my mind and did business studies at Edinburgh instead. Hated it frankly, but I was quite good at it I suppose, and ended up with a job in "business". But I'd much rather have been a marine biologist. To this day I've always preferred being outdoors to in. Now that's interesting. I wanted to do French, German and Chemistry, but my school wouldn't let me as they forbade mixing of subject genres at A level, as they said Universities wouldn't accept you on a science course with only one science A level. Sounds like it was different in Scotland, maybe I'd have been better off if my family had stayed there. We had to choose all sciences, or all humanities/languages. I chose Economics and instantly regretted it. I should have gone with Geography. But still, I loved Chemistry and wished I could have continued with that.
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Post by Humph on Nov 16, 2018 10:18:46 GMT
Yes it is, and certainly was a different system. We had O grades in 4th form, roughly equivalent to O levels, Highers in 5th form, which are tougher than O grades but not as challenging as A levels, and then A levels in 6th form if you wanted to. I already had Highers in Physics and Chemistry so adding them into the mix I had enough to do a science course at Uni if I'd chosen to.
I can't honestly remember why I changed my mind about courses, but I suspect it was a bit to do with parental concerns about which course was liable to generate a reliable future income...
I've by and large done ok as a result, but there has always been a nagging doubt that I do what I do purely for money, rather than for any form of passionate interest.
Which is, if not unusual, possibly regrettable.
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