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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 5:19:01 GMT
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Sept 5, 2017 12:14:55 GMT
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Post by WDB on Nov 9, 2017 7:37:34 GMT
Another brick out of the Leave wall last night. Priti Patel thought she was unsackable and so free to do what she liked - which turned out to be trying to break the international consensus on Israel's illegal occupations.
This is Tory Brexitism all over. The likes of Patel, Redwood, Rees-Mogg see only the money they could make from deals with unsavoury regimes, and decry any form of regulation - on labour, trading standards, human rights - as 'red tape'. The EU is only one of their targets; the last 70 years of social progress - the postwar consensus on which modern British society is built - is what they'd like to dismantle. Fortunately, their ambition tends to exceed their competence: Davis and his amazing powers of negotiation, Patel's dissembling, Johnson - well, where to begin?
This at least is another step towards the fall of May. She can't possibly endure till 2022, and 2019 is looking like a long shot. That means another general election before the exit deadline, and that means we can still prevent the whole self-destructive plan from going through.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 10:11:49 GMT
I don't see how, unless we elect a LibDem or LibDem/SNP coalition government. Chances of that are around the same level as Fulham winning the Champions League. Labour will take us out, too. I know there's a theory around that they're just saying that until they get into government, but I'm not convinced. To use the horrible expression that UKIP always have, Lab and Tory are two cheeks of the same arse, on this subject anyway. Now that the arse is farting a song which UKIP and Leavers approve of, they're not quite so cross any more. Oh the irony.
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Post by Hofmeister on Nov 9, 2017 12:01:36 GMT
Hanging onto the dream of reversal of Brexit is a waste of time and counter productive. Its going to happen, its simply a matter of how hard.
What the country will have to do is reposition itself within the global order. For far too long we have been fooling ourselves that we are a world power with influence. We are not, we are becoming less so, and this will accelerate after Brexit. We will become a kind of Belgium, but with more people and different chips.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 12:38:45 GMT
I really am deeply disturbed by the way the government has handled this. Yes, no-one expected the result, but now that we have it, lets at least stop fooling ourselves it will be easy. It will be very difficult. Lets get it over with and try to make the best of what will be a really bad decision.
However, on the flip side, it also shows how morally bankrupt the European project is. They really would cut off their noses to spite their face. It's a real pity that one country calls the shots (Germany) and that any sensible suggestions from another main donor (UK) were frequently poo poohed. However our civil servants didn't help us with gold plating EU regulations when they came to us. Hence the success of Farage. No one understood the real benefits of the EU, and won't until it is too late.
As an aside WDB, have a read of the Telegraph this morning about the Priti Patel matter. I do know more than this than anyone here (I know Lord Polak and his sister). What Patel was trying to do, was to assist an existing operation, whereby Syrians injured in their Civil War come over the border and get treated in Israel. This has to be co-ordinated by the Israeli Defence Force, as getting so close to the border is dangerous. This humanitarian programme has been ongoing for at least four years and has been reported on by the BBC in reasonably positive terms (unusual for the BBC).
It is not the case she was going off piste about general policy regarding the Palestinian/Israel conflict. Her 'meetings' in Israel were not secret, but all over Twitter and Facebook where she was usually seen in public (at cafes, in charitable institutions etc) with the Israeli Government officals concerned, trying to understand the extent of the programme which the Israelis self fund 100%. Of course anything positive about Israel is a red rag to a bull for the Foreign Office, so she was 'taken down', but don't be fooled by the reports of Channel 4, The Guardian or the BBC radio reporter. She was taken down becuase of Brexit and Miachael Fallon's departure - nothing to do with Israel - that was just a convenient excuse.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 13:52:58 GMT
Er, Noggers, Belgium is in the EU. We'll be more like a, er, um, well.....nobody.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 9, 2017 13:53:02 GMT
Do you really think we can go right up to 2019, see the looming No Deal and all its consequences, and still just step over the edge? I don't, nor - in its predictions for 2018, does Bloomberg. That lays out several routes - including a Labour election victory and a Tory civil war - by which we get either a second referendum or a decision to drop the whole charade.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 14:24:04 GMT
I don't see the second referendum thing, other than with a LibDem government. If we get a Lab government between now and 2019, they will simply request an extension to A50, or revoke it with a view to resending when ready. EU have said they're open to both requests, and both would be allowable. But the Tories are refusing to countenance either approach. It's a bit of a non-sequitur to claim that a Lab government or a Tory civil War will definitively produce a second referendum or a dropping of Brexit. A Tory government WILL take us over the cliff edge, Labour will just move the cliff edge out in the hope it gets less cliffy and edgy.
A proper, serious way to achieve Brexit would be by treaty rather than by A50. But that would likely take 10 years and be lots of work, so nobody in politics is willing to do the "right" thing. Well, not quite as right as just remaining, but you get the point.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 9, 2017 15:44:00 GMT
However, on the flip side, it also shows how morally bankrupt the European project is. They really would cut off their noses to spite their face. It's a real pity that one country calls the shots (Germany) and that any sensible suggestions from another main donor (UK) were frequently poo poohed. . That view has much to do with the Telegraph's editorial line and little to do with the truth. (But it was loudly and indignantly spluttered at me by one of the few true porridge-down-his-sweater fruitcakes I encountered on my Remain stall last year.) My many German business contacts tell me that Germany values (present tense) the UK as a buffer against the EU becoming too French. My French contacts see us the other way, as a buffer against excessive Germanization. And those from smaller countries don't want France and Germany to have it all their own way. In other words, nobody wants the UK to leave, and we would have no difficulty at all in persuading the EU to let us call the whole thing off. Article 50 is only an agreement - or part of one - and, like any other agreement, can be terminated by mutual consent. |
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Post by Hofmeister on Nov 9, 2017 16:23:47 GMT
Er, Noggers, Belgium is in the EU. We'll be more like a, er, um, well.....nobody. Exactly, I wasn't referring to Belgiums EU status, merely its status as a nobody. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 16:29:42 GMT
If so, why did they not listen to David Cameron when he tried to obtain some sensible changes to the way the EU operates? At the very least, can we have the accounts signed off properly each year??
Given the very small margin between the two sides, if Cameron had come back with some sensible proposals, he would very likely still be Prime Minister, Boris would not be foreign secretary and we would have cheaper oversas holidays....
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Post by Hofmeister on Nov 9, 2017 16:30:43 GMT
Do you really think we can go right up to 2019, see the looming No Deal and all its consequences, and still just step over the edge? I don't, nor - in its predictions for 2018, does Bloomberg. That lays out several routes - including a Labour election victory and a Tory civil war - by which we get either a second referendum or a decision to drop the whole charade. The sooner you get to grips with the fact we are out of the EU, the sooner you can stop clinging onto what ifs. If labour gets in, they too will drive Brexit because that's what their electorate want. There is always a tory civil war, its the way of the world. It goes like this, - tory civil war party falls apart
- labour elected
- labour screw up economy
- tory party elected
- economic pain while economy fixed
- tory civil war, party falls apart.
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Post by Hofmeister on Nov 9, 2017 16:32:21 GMT
If so, why did they not listen to David Cameron when he tried to obtain some sensible changes to the way the EU operates? At the very least, can we have the accounts signed off properly each year?? when was the last time you saw HM governments accounts signed off each year. |
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Nov 9, 2017 17:25:08 GMT
As an aside WDB, have a read of the Telegraph this morning about the Priti Patel matter. I do know more than this than anyone here (I know Lord Polak and his sister). What Patel was trying to do, was to assist an existing operation, whereby Syrians injured in their Civil War come over the border and get treated in Israel. This has to be co-ordinated by the Israeli Defence Force, as getting so close to the border is dangerous. This humanitarian programme has been ongoing for at least four years and has been reported on by the BBC in reasonably positive terms (unusual for the BBC). It is not the case she was going off piste about general policy regarding the Palestinian/Israel conflict. Her 'meetings' in Israel were not secret, but all over Twitter and Facebook where she was usually seen in public (at cafes, in charitable institutions etc) with the Israeli Government officals concerned, trying to understand the extent of the programme which the Israelis self fund 100%. Of course anything positive about Israel is a red rag to a bull for the Foreign Office, so she was 'taken down', but don't be fooled by the reports of Channel 4, The Guardian or the BBC radio reporter. She was taken down becuase of Brexit and Miachael Fallon's departure - nothing to do with Israel - that was just a convenient excuse. Aren't you rather disingenuously neglecting to mention that Patel's hosts took her to the Golan Heights, which are legally part of Syria? That put the UK at risk of appearing to endorse Israel's illegal occupation; not a 'red rag' to the Foreign Office, but a red line. Going there was a hugely irresponsible act for a UK cabinet minister. She wasn't 'taken down'; she got what was coming to her. |
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