Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 15, 2018 14:46:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 14:46:16 GMT
It does make us look very silly as a nation when our main opposition leader is so obviously biased towards anyone who is a 'reactionary' and fails to see that society could not function without some sensible rules of engagement to make everyone feel comfortable in their own homes.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 15, 2018 17:28:55 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 17:28:55 GMT
>> is a weak leader who should have made it clear from the start that his party will not tolerate anti-semitism in any form.
…...is a weak leader who should have made it clear from the start that his party will not tolerate bigotry and prejudice in any form.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 15, 2018 18:09:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 18:09:06 GMT
The problem is, the only bigotry and prejudice he does tolerate is anti-semitism. Not only does he tolerate it, he appears to condone it and possibly encourage it. Given his known history, if he agreed to the changes demanded by members of his own party, he would have to resign his membership.
It is ironic, that 30/40 years ago the traditional political home of British Jews was Labour. But the queue for the exit is long.
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Berlin
Aug 19, 2018 9:34:52 GMT
Post by bromptonaut on Aug 19, 2018 9:34:52 GMT
The problem is, the only bigotry and prejudice he does tolerate is anti-semitism. Not only does he tolerate it, he appears to condone it and possibly encourage it. How does this manifest itself other than as supporting the Palestinian cause?
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 20, 2018 8:22:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 8:22:34 GMT
I have no objection to people supporting the Palestinian cause. 99.9% of Jews also wish there to be peace and for the Arabs to have a country they run themselves. The issue we have with Corbyn is his support of those who prefer to kill than negotiate and more importantly his expressed view that Israel as the Jewish state is illegitimate.
If he came out and said 'I support the right of the Jews to have a Jewish state alongside a state for Arabs' no-one would have any issues with him. He has a problem with accepting that Jews have any right to a state.
Turning to another 'nation', I support the Kurdish cause for an independent state; they have been persecuted by the Turks, Syrians, Iraqis and the Iranians for centuries. So, each nation should if it chose and can be identified as such have a self-governing 'homeland'.
Corbyn seems think that this applies to everyone except the Jews. He has stated so during his meeting with the Jewish Leadership Council and the Board of Deputies of British Jews. I know several people on these organisations and his henchman Seumas Milne expressed the view that Israel should not exist. That is anti-semitism.
Anyway I don't want to cause any major disagreement and certainly have no intention of called anyone out like I did with 'Dog' in Car4Play so I'm going to keep my own counsel on this topic from now on.
I just wish I could take you all (inc Humph who has been) on a trip around Israel and the Middle East you would see what is all about.
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Berlin
Aug 20, 2018 20:34:57 GMT
Post by bromptonaut on Aug 20, 2018 20:34:57 GMT
Espada,
I've no more intention of falling out than you have. Dog crossed a line I'd steer well clear of. Where has Corbyn stated he has a problem with accepting Jews have any right to a state? Frankly the prefer to kill than negotiate argument could equally be applied to a line of Israeli leaders including Begin (in his youth), Sharon and Netanyahu.
While I don't share Seamus Milne's view I'm not clear why it is in and of itself anti-semitic. In fact my whole issue here is with conflating the rights of Jews to eqaulity of status and to observe their faith etc with the rights/wrongs of conflicting claims to land and nationhood.
NB While I'm a Labour supporter/voter I'm no Corbynite but I'm genuinely struggling to find examples of real anti-semitism, statements around Judaism as a faith or Jews as a race, as opposed to views on Israel.
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Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,723
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Berlin
Aug 20, 2018 22:56:19 GMT
Post by Rob on Aug 20, 2018 22:56:19 GMT
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Berlin
Aug 21, 2018 12:48:45 GMT
Post by bromptonaut on Aug 21, 2018 12:48:45 GMT
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and even, eventually, statesman. There are plenty of photos of Mrs T and other world leaders shaking hands with Menachem Begin who had blood on his hands from actions in forties. The same can be said of Yasser Arafat and Fatah. Even Hamas has the legitimacy of being elected in Gaza The Muslim Brotherhood is designated a terrorist organisation by several states but only one of them, Canada, is a liberal democracy. While they're now proscribed in Saudi Arabia they were previously friends of the regime. Proscription in Muslim states may well be based on the Shia/Sunni schism or other divisions in Islam as much as the organisation's actions. They're not proscribed in Britain, any other EU country or the USA. The latter has flirted with the idea but CIA reports suggest: Designation of the Brotherhood as a terrorist organization "may fuel extremism" and harm relations with U.S. allies. The report noted that the Brotherhood had "rejected violence as a matter of official policy and opposed al-Qa'ida and ISIS" and that while "a minority of MB [Muslim Brotherhood] members have engaged in violence, most often in response to harsh regime repression, perceived foreign occupation, or civil conflicts", designation of the organization as a terrorist group would prompt concern from U.S. allies in the Middle East "that such a step could destabilize their internal politics, feed extremist narratives, and anger Muslims worldwide." The CIA analysis stated: "MB groups enjoy widespread support across the Near East-North Africa region and many Arabs and Muslims worldwide would view an MB designation as an affront to their core religious and societal values. Moreover, a US designation would probably weaken MB leaders' arguments against violence and provide ISIS and al-Qa'ida additional grist for propaganda to win followers and support, particularly for attacks against US interests.
I've not gone beyond Wikipedia and it's quoted sources but I don't think associating with the Brotherhood is the 'gotcha' the Telegraph and it's security 'expert' suggest.
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Berlin
Aug 21, 2018 13:37:05 GMT
Post by tyrednexited on Aug 21, 2018 13:37:05 GMT
...I think it's about time we rooted out these lefty terrorist sympathisers and appeasers......
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