Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 1, 2018 18:49:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 18:49:38 GMT
Trying again tomorrow morning for the Berlin trip. This year no kids, better weather and a very early flight. Maybe we'll get there... and on time?
Let you know...
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 8, 2018 9:41:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 9:41:49 GMT
Wow!
What a great city and so much to do, see, witness etc. The fascinating thing of course is that you really feel recent history. Did a bike tour and was joking with an American who was about my age that what the guide was telling the youngsters on the tour about history, we remember it happening. But it's only when you are there that you appreciate the events of 1933 - 1992.
Suffered in the heat though and the Pergamon Museum was unbearable, too many people let in despite it being mostly closed for renovations and simply too hot.
Really like that shops are shut on Sunday. The city was very pleasant to walk through and much calmer. It would disadvantage me greatly if we reversed Sunday trading laws but I would reverse them like a shot.
Didn't go in a single car and felt all the better for it. Great public transport system.
Went to Platform 17 at Grunewald station. A very moving yet simple memorial to the Jews deported to concentration camps. Recommended.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 8, 2018 19:55:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 19:55:50 GMT
>>A very moving yet simple memorial to the Jews deported to concentration camps.
I am not minimising the horror in any way at all. But there will come a time when we have to let it go and move on.
And I think that time is not far ahead.
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WDB
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Berlin
Aug 8, 2018 21:27:59 GMT
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Post by WDB on Aug 8, 2018 21:27:59 GMT
I think we mostly have moved on, in the sense that Germany is once again a leading free-world nation, but accepts a duty imposed by its 20th-century history to lead the world in remembering the dangers of totalitarianism. While I was there in May, there was a demonstration on Unter den Linden by about 6,000 AFD knuckle-draggers — and a counter-protest by 25,000 progressives. Under a bridge near the border here is a graffito: ‘AFD = Faschisten’. I think liberal Germany is alert to the dangers of simplistic nationalism and will see it off for the good of us all.
On the other hand, 200 years on, we still have the Income Tax introduced to fight Napoleon, as well as a distaste for his autocratic rule. And after 500 years we still see Henry VIII as the archetypal ruler who believed too much of his own publicity. I think the lessons of the 20th century will be taught in schools for a long time yet.
Glad you’re enjoying it, Esp. It’s an amazing city, isn’t it?
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 9, 2018 13:36:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 13:36:04 GMT
Just great. I know Paris well but I see the greater attraction of Berlin simply due to the informality if it, the pleasantness of the citizens and the history which I can relate to.
I regret Otto I cannot agree. The Topography of Terror outdoor exhibition in Berlin shows how easily an evil regime can take power from the people. This is relevant today given the situation in Venezuela, the British Labour Party and the treatment of Jews still in parts of the world. We must not forget where it started and how it grew. A simple memorial, but one that chills to the bone.
Every European teenager should visit Berlin to understand how Nazi and then Communist rule destroyed families and people. And how close we are to it happening again by both extremes of the political spectrum.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 9, 2018 14:06:32 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 14:06:32 GMT
>>the treatment of Jews still in parts of the world.
the treatment of PEOPLE in parts of the World. People! not one group, but people in their entirety.
Why single out Jews? Are they more important or special somehow? To me they are no more nor less important than any other group of people. To be honest, I don't really understand why we even need the special words "anti Semitism". We have bigotry and racism, surely they cover it?
Surely to be equal, peaceful and fair we must be integrated and live together?
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 10, 2018 12:52:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 12:52:18 GMT
Otto
I agree and disagree. There are awful things happening to minorities everywhere, but one particular minority is constantly singled out for attack everywhere and I am part of that minority and suffer for it. Not every day but every so often I experience overt anti semitism.
The point I was making was that people like Hitler and Corbyn (hopefully to a lesser extent) are masters at divide and rule. Do that in certain way and you end up with destruction of economies, societies and unpoliced attacks on minorities without concern for retribution. Does anyone really care about the fate of the Yemeni kids killed yesterday? Not really, but they should.
The Topography of Terror explains it beautifully in all its horror. As Niemoller said, "first they came for the Communists but I said nothing because I was not a Communist.....then they came for me but there was no one left to speak out for me.".
That for me was the highlight (not sure I mean that) of Berlin and the one thing I took away. It makes Berlin possibly the most important city to visit on the Earth today. Oh, and it's also just a great city to experience as you would Paris, Rome, New York etc.
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Berlin
Aug 11, 2018 8:24:48 GMT
Post by bromptonaut on Aug 11, 2018 8:24:48 GMT
I agree with part of what Espada says. Perhaps because it has a long history anti-semitism has become a much more complex form of racism than that visited on Africans or Muslims (OK, not a race as such but another religious group that experiences prejudice). The blood libel, the myth of hook nosed bankers controlling the worlds money, Shylock; there's a long list going back at least to the crucifixion. While the Holocaust remains in living and first/second generational memory it too deserves some protection over and above history's other outrages such as slavery or the massacre of Native Americans.
Where I diverge sharply is over the near comparison of Corbyn to Hitler. For all the brouhaha real examples of anti-semitic behaviour in the Labour party seem pretty thin on the ground. It's no secret that Corbyn believes Israel, particularly under Netanyahu, has taken too much from and given far too little to the Palestinians. That's a perfectly legitimate political point. It doesn't make a government under him an existential threat to Jewish life either in the UK or elsewhere.
I can also see where there is an issue around some of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's examples one or two of which seem more about stopping criticism of Israel then real anti semitism.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 11, 2018 13:45:51 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 13:45:51 GMT
>> it too deserves some protection over and above history's other outrages
Why "over and above"?
And much as I dislike Corbyn and think him incompetent, I entirely agree that disagreeing with the actions of Israel doesn't make him some kind of threat to Jewish life in the UK.
In any case, Corbyn has a point. Or does anybody seriously believe that Israel has been blameless in it's dealings with the Palestinians over the last 70 years or so?
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Berlin
Aug 12, 2018 7:05:09 GMT
Post by bromptonaut on Aug 12, 2018 7:05:09 GMT
I was thinking specifically of holocaust denial and laws dealing with it.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 12, 2018 21:04:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2018 21:04:47 GMT
We have people denying the existence of God. Surely that offends the Jewish people more than denying the holocaust? What about evolution/creation. Flat earth. Visiting aliens. etc. etc.
Why do we need laws about denying the holocaust?
If I choose not to believe in God, does that lessen your God? So if I choose to deny the holocaust, does that lessen the injustice and tragedy?
The Jewish people and their faith deserve all the same respect, protection and justice that all people and all religions deserve.
They should not be a special case.
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Avant
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Berlin
Aug 12, 2018 22:50:41 GMT
Post by Avant on Aug 12, 2018 22:50:41 GMT
Indeed they shouldn't - but it works both ways, and as your previous sentence implies, they shouldn't be singled out for persecution or any form of religious intolerance. Quite simply, in a free country anti-Semitism should not exist.
Jeremy Corbyn - I agree he has nothing in common with Hitler - is a weak leader who should have made it clear from the start that his party will not tolerate anti-semitism in any form.
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Deleted
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Berlin
Aug 13, 2018 18:52:02 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 18:52:02 GMT
For Glub's sake!
I am growing tired of the constant media coverage of religious intolerance towards people of Jewish and Islamic faith yet other cases seem to be totally ignored.
As a Pastafarian I cannot walk down any high street without being subject to antipasto.
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Berlin
Aug 13, 2018 19:31:19 GMT
Post by tyrednexited on Aug 13, 2018 19:31:19 GMT
As a Pastafarian I cannot walk down any high street without being subject to antipasto. ...you're upsetting everyone with your deadlocks.......
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WDB
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Berlin
Aug 14, 2018 7:16:15 GMT
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Post by WDB on Aug 14, 2018 7:16:15 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn - I agree he has nothing in common with Hitler - is a weak leader who should have made it clear from the start that his party will not tolerate anti-semitism in any form. Corbyn’s lack of insight is a worry in a potential prime minister. The ‘present but I don’t think I was involved’ nonsense in Tunisia puts him on a par with Johnson and Trump — neither of whom is fit for public office — in failing to see the importance of symbolism in international politics. Labour needs to persuade him to step discreetly aside for a leader who can win the election that will come before next June.
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