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Post by crankcase on Sept 23, 2016 6:50:14 GMT
Firstly, this is a repost from another place, so apologies to those who will have seen it there. I only put it here again in case of a different audience and more or different answers.
Over there, I said:
Next week we were supposed to be having a decorator in. Today we started to clear the room. On moving a bookcase, the plaster behind it was bulging, and poking it made it fall off. It's like wet sand, and basically fell off over a wide area. There's a smell of damp, and bits of black rotten wood appear to be in amongst the bricks.
Evidently this is a problem. I am resigned to it being thousands to fix, so I need to know how to best go about that.
Do I need a surveyor, and if so, how do I find one? Google has already taken me to websites saying don't think about using anything but a member of the PCA and then to other sites saying not to touch the PCA. I know I don't want some bloke at random telling me I have rising damp and doing thousands of pounds of worthless work, but I don't know how to avoid this.
What might a good plan be? Do I need a chartered surveyor? Is that an appropriate thing? And then what, a contractor? And again, how does one find reliable trustworthy people?
You can tell I'm way out of my comfort zone with this one.
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Post by Hofmeister on Sept 23, 2016 7:04:26 GMT
I havent read the post in another place, so this is all off the cuff and is how I would approach it.
My first action would be to satisfy myself about the likely cause(s) of the damp, so I would be aware if someone was feeding me bullshit.
Is it an outside wall? water ingress from outside? why in this spot, any water pipes leaking? what is the wood and why is it there? (the wood acts as a wick). What is the other side of the wall? The other side of the wall is a good place to start.
If its a wall with no water source nearby, then clearly its high humidity caused by the bookcase.
Then I would sone personal recommendations of builders. They deal with damp and its causes all the time. Ask them for a quote and likely cause. I wouldn't find it at all necessary to go anywhere near a surveyor.
As I say, all personal opinion and the way I would (and have) approach it.
And yes its going to be disruptive and expensive, especially if its got into the floorboards/joists. Still at least there is no scaffolding involved (unless its a leak from the roof)
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Post by crankcase on Sept 23, 2016 7:29:04 GMT
Thanks zero - that was a fast reply!
Well, I don't really know where the damp is coming from - it's not completely obvious. It is an outside wall, and it's an end wall. It's by the chimney, and my first suspicion, but no more than that, is a leak in the chimney stack itself, with water then coming down inside and reaching the ground. I haven't yet been able to look at ground level on the outside wall (neighbour's drive, behind locked gate) but will of course.
But I might be wrong - it might be condensation, as the floor is a suspended wooden one and who knows what's underneath. There are a couple of airbricks but at the other end of the room.
There's no guttering above it (end wall). No water pipes I know of.
Trouble is, in a old house, it has history I know nothing of, so for all I know there's a 100 year old drain under it, or a 30s water pipe buried in the depths there somewhere, or anything really. Which is why I was thinking about the proper examination by a surveyor idea.
I think a builder will deal with what he sees - clean it up, plaster over it - but I'm not sure he will really tell me whether its wet rot or dry (I think from googling it's wet, but hey) whether it's humidity or a leak and so on, unless is blatantly obvious. Which to me it isn't.
The wood seems to be the remains of old floor joists perhaps - bits of now wet and rotten wood embedded between the bricks, but not extending into the room. Maybe they were cut off when this floor went in, and this floor is an inch or two lower than the old or something.
I take your point though - lots of sharks out there who make up work.
Trouble is, I don't have any recommendations of builders or other people, so it's web trawling really, hence using all sources, including this one, to get some advice and a balanced picture.
Thanks for your answer.
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Post by Hofmeister on Sept 23, 2016 7:47:01 GMT
A builder will do as he is told, as long as he knowns the person telling him knows a little about the problem. Which is why I suggest you find the possible sources of leaks yourself.
Outside wall! You are looking for failing (cracked, crushed) or breached (pile of soil) damp proof course. If it has one, being an old place it probably does not have one (if it does it will be a chemical one - find the filled in injection holes) Being old its probably not cavity wall.
Near a chimney! AH! yes a likely source of water ingress or maker of damp. if it is this the damp source is likely to be worse nearer the chimney, but find yourself a damp meter and plot the "dampness" and make a plan of the ingress, the damper it is the nearer the source. A chimney on an outside wall can sweat and promote damp if its not properly vented. It can also as as a nice waterfall from the top to the bottom (tho it will shows signs of damp up top inside the house)
The problem with most surveyors is they wont rip things apart to find the source. Your builder will be happy too rip up floorboards, tale off skirting, knock off plaster, take out a brick to find the source. Your average surveyor will be happier printing out his standard exclusion clauses as to the things he couldn't find because he wont do that.
What does our tame devon builder say?
I tend to use CheckerTrade. It works more than it fails.
Edit. You need access to the other side, Now. Builder are good at that if you are in dispute with your neighbor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 17:20:16 GMT
Ahem Zero. ...I'm a chartered surveyor!
For valuations we need to have lots of exclusions, but presented with a specific problem we are bit more investigative.
My first thought, given its an outside wall and there were cupboards in front of it, is condensation. But, as Zero said, you also need to look for other sources of water ingress. Poor pointing, defective guttering or flashing, or lack of ventilation in the chimney breast.
I would strip back the area of damp plaster until you reach solid plaster, clean the exposed brick and then leave for a few days. See what happens. Does it get wet when it rains, if so where? Report back here.....
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Post by crankcase on Sept 26, 2016 7:16:22 GMT
Thank you all. Answers appreciated. Took the "ask a builder" route in the end, as it LOOKS as if it's obvious...
I've put a longer post in another place, but in brief: building man I have to trust by proxy (as in recommended by someone I DO trust) has looked.
We have a leaking chimney immediately above the area, and ALSO the neighbour's concrete drive butts up against my damp wall ( and at a height over the non-existent damp course).
Someone in the past has dug a small trench in their drive part way along my wall, but it's full of soil, so it's just a non-draining wet soil filled hole.
Building man is quoting for chimney fix and also making proper arrangements in neighbour's drive for drainage.
No idea of price, but involves scaffolding, and Cambridge prices, so will be at least a million pounds a second.
Meanwhile, plaster has indeed been taken back as far as possible, and the wet bricks can now see the light.
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Post by Hofmeister on Sept 26, 2016 7:33:35 GMT
If you have found a good builder, cherish and nurture him.
But I am still shocked you need to employ a decorator.
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Post by crankcase on Sept 26, 2016 8:27:57 GMT
Yes, well we thought we'd decorate the bathroom ourselves. That was two years ago and it's still only half done. I can't tell you how much both of us hate it, are useless at it, and would prefer to spend the three minutes a week we get to ourselves doing something more interesting, like breathing.
Getting a nice man we've used before to strip and prepare the manky-as-you-like walls, reline them, and paint them, and the ceiling beams, and all the woodwork, all in about a week while we're at work each day, for £1600, is absolutely the right thing for us.
Maybe once we retire we'll have time to do that kind of malarkey, although we'll still hate it. I can't tell you how high my blood pressure goes and the rages I fly into whenever anything at all to do with screwdrivers are involved. It ALWAYS is a total disaster involving blood, crappy results and a complete waste of time.
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Post by Hofmeister on Sept 26, 2016 9:22:18 GMT
Well, as you seem to think you need a screwdriver to strip, paper and paint, I think you made a wise choice.
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Post by crankcase on Sept 28, 2016 7:38:52 GMT
Ok quote is in - scaffolding, then sort out the chimney, replace the concrete fillet with lead flashing, make good tiles etc as appropriate. Clear, extend, dig out french drain.
£1550. That's probably £50 for the work, £20 for the materials, and the rest on the scaffolding. I'm in the wrong business.
However, I guess we'll go with it. The impossibility and pain of finding ANOTHER builder I can trust to ultimately get a price that MIGHT be a couple of hundred less (or might not be) isn't worth the hassle.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Sept 28, 2016 8:11:21 GMT
'French drain' is a new one on me. Not to the OED, though: 'a rubble drain'. Is that the same as what I've always called a soakaway?
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Post by crankcase on Sept 28, 2016 9:18:15 GMT
We have a soakaway in the back garden for other purposes, WDB - that was altogether a bigger affair than a small trench, but I guess the concept is similar. Now see you over on the new Sonos thread, if you would....  |
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Post by Hofmeister on Sept 28, 2016 9:51:24 GMT
Had a new "soakaway" dug in my mums back garden. It is basically a gert big underground reservoir filled with very porous material. - A mini digger job to do. A French drain is basically a shallow ditch filled with stones. In Many old properties with no DPC its a good idea to have one abutting the exterior walls.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 18:58:38 GMT
Scaffolding is b*****dy expensive. Mainly due to insurance. A fairly large local firm in South Manchester almost collapsed [sic] a few years ago, because the premiums had risen so high - but they had had no claims. Just had some major roof works done on an office building in Macclesfield. Scaffolding was about 50% of cost, despite the works being lengthy and complicated. The job could have been carried out by a cherry picker over three or four weekends, but the council would not allow it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 19:14:48 GMT
Friend of mine owns a scaffolding company and makes a bloody fortune.
However, he makes it from erection and dismantling and the first few days. Ongoing rental is an increasingly unattractive proposition for him given such ongoing costs as insurance and the increasing chance of something happening with the more time its up.
Still makes a damned fortune at it though.
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