WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 26, 2024 18:00:59 GMT
…and that might not matter. The evidence of significant numbers of batteries trashed by reckless charging practice is scant - certainly far less than the alarmists predicted a few years ago. But you wouldn’t want to be that buyer who paid £40k for a knackered battery, even if there was a warranty on it. And, with so many cars available that have clearly been charged at home and used very gently, we can happily leave the 40,000-milers to the bargain hunters with an appetite for (mild) risk.
It’s a different paradigm - but ultimately the same old rule of knowing what the poor user practices are and assessing the seller as much as the car. You wouldn’t want an automatic Micra with 500 miles a year because you’d know it had barely ever got warm. (You might not want Humph’s in-laws’ Ignis for the same reason.) With EVs, the hazards are different but the principle just the same.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 26, 2024 18:29:24 GMT
You buy a car with with a petrol or diesel engine with a manual or automatic gearbox and there is a risk something will fail. Expensive items would be the engine and the gearbox. More likely to be a problem if mileage high etc.
You buy and EV and there are problems with the battery pack(s)... Again more likely with higher mileage because there may be rapid DV charging involved.
But a recon/rebuilt engine and gearbox could cost thousands. Probably more than a much older car is worth. But replacement battery packs for a fairly new car can be economically unviable.
The after market support for EVs has to improve quickly.
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bpg
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Post by bpg on Mar 26, 2024 19:08:57 GMT
These days almost anyone can fix the mechanical part of an ICE car. One of the ten or so control modules goes and that will be the uneconomic repair.
The ECU crashed on our C4 Grand Picasso the car was off the road for three weeks, much had scratching between the manufacturer and dealership, reflashing didn't work, ended up with a new module which then had to be coded to the car, all covered by the manufacturers new car warranty. I wouldn't like to have been paying for that dealer training out of warranty.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 26, 2024 19:51:14 GMT
I wonder how many more control modules are in an EV just looking after the batteries (charging, rapid charging, heating/cooling, pre-conditioning, brake regeneration, etc.).
EVs don't mean problems with ECUs is over - it just got more complicated. And as you say a lot of people will be able to look after an ICE including rebuilds.
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Post by EspadaIII on Mar 26, 2024 19:58:51 GMT
It's all a ploy to get us back to the horse and cart or Shanks' pony.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 26, 2024 20:28:44 GMT
We're not allowed horses - too many emissions. So walking it is.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 26, 2024 22:58:29 GMT
I wonder how many more control modules are in an EV just looking after the batteries (charging, rapid charging, heating/cooling, pre-conditioning, brake regeneration, etc.). EVs don't mean problems with ECUs is over - it just got more complicated. I’m not sure that’s true. Think of all the CPUs required to make a 19th-century ICE even a halfway-decent 21st-century citizen. All gone. The EV stuff you describe, that happens once or twice a trip, is a breeze compared to an engine ignition map that might be consulted and updated 400 times a second. EVs are essentially simple devices, and with much more shared engineering than fossil vehicles. (The simplicity is also a reason to prefer EVs to the disinformationists’ favourite, the hydrogen fuel cell.) A lot of the stuff that causes trouble in EVs is the technology they have because they’re cars, not because they’re electric. Still annoying when it fails, but not a reason to fear EVs per se. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 27, 2024 0:02:52 GMT
I think your idea of EVs being simple devices is a little deluded. They are complicated devices which are often (always these) days connected to the factory via the Internet. Plus the batteries (i..e. multiple packs of many cells) are complicated and need managing. The same cells are not all always used - the battery packs reconfigure themselves to prolong life.
I fear you like many underestimate the complexity of managing the batteries (not individual cells) in EVs.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 27, 2024 0:30:18 GMT
This probably needs to be in a separate thread.
But to suggest an EV is simple... are you serious? Take an 800V battery system with probably dozens of 'batteries' and thousands of cells. The car manages which cells are used. To get best charging time the unit needs preconditioning (cool or heat). Dead cells are removed from use. And the inverter doing AC to DC charging must add complexity.
I don't think an EV has fewer ECUs than an ICE. You say things happen once or twice a trip - but something is managing that.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 27, 2024 0:34:33 GMT
And EV's are so much simpler than an ICE they cost less? The same? The fact so far is they depreciate more. The reality is the CPU needed for a modern car's infotainment is well beyond what was needed for an entire car.
The go to of course is the ARM embedded I guess (I know the designers from university) for controlling cars and not more complicated things. Then it's full blown ARM/AMD/Intel CPUs and not the tiny embedded ARMs CPUs aimed at this sort of thing.
And for slightly older ICE cars... you didn't need CPUs. I'm pretty sure my first Fiesta with manual choke had no CPUs.
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bpg
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Post by bpg on Mar 27, 2024 6:46:11 GMT
To really push home the rise in car prices, the new Toyota Yaris GRY starts at £44k, £1,500 extra for an automatic or £60k for one of the two special editions.
Looks like unobtanium has been used in these new petrol cars to push the price up by £10k on the entry car.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 27, 2024 11:55:29 GMT
And EV's are so much simpler than an ICE they cost less? The same? The fact so far is they depreciate more. Cost and complexity are not the same thing. A diamond tiara is not complex but you’re unlikely to find a cheap one. Materials cost money, as do new expertise and product development, and EVs have taken a lot of all three. The current depreciation situation reflects distortions caused by new technology, government flip-flops and post-covid supply disruptions. It proves nothing in the long term. Most engineers will tell you that reliability has an inverse relationship to the number of moving parts, complicated by factors like heat and moisture. A fossil car has far more of all those than an EV. And for slightly older ICE cars... you didn't need CPUs. I'm pretty sure my first Fiesta with manual choke had no CPUs. We all remember old petrol cars. (And our parents’ even simpler cars, before electronic ignition, that wouldn’t start in the rain.) And we all know why they were legislated out of existence. They needed to become more complex — much more complex, as Humph’s Adblue sensor can testify — to remain fit for use. My point about the battery was not really about any of this in the sense of reliability, rather of durability. It appears to be possible to trash a battery by being over-aggressive with frequent rapid charging. Conversely, there’s not much evidence to suggest many people have actually done that. But it’s easy to read the signs of risky treatment, and very easy to find used EVs without them. I’m shopping for one at the moment and feel confident that I’ll be fine. Anyway… |
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 27, 2024 12:05:25 GMT
…I went to the Audi shop again. One elf replied to my ‘good morning’ but didn’t seem to associate it with money I might have to spend. But it didn’t matter, because there were unlocked examples in the showroom of all three EV bodies I might consider. So I put them to the four-of-me test.
Two of them passed. The Q4 Sportback was only a narrow fail but it’s short of headroom in the back. It was bottom of my Audi list anyway; the fastback styling looks wrong with the blocky front end, and the regular Q4 just looks neater.
Better inside too; very good in the back for a fairly compact car. Looks like it would work for us.
Finally, the Q8 Sportback. Much bigger outside, surprisingly little to show for it inside. The space is fine, for heads and legs, but it’s a lot of inefficient EV to lug around for such a small improvement. It’s a more pleasing, expensive-feeling design than the Q4, and it may be fabulously wafty on the road, but that’s a question for another day.
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Post by Humph on Mar 27, 2024 12:20:17 GMT
Is there some kind of after market blocking device available to counteract the on board IQ reducer that appears to be fitted to Audis?
😂
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Mar 27, 2024 12:26:55 GMT
But about those Audi interiors. I’ve watched a lot of video reviews, especially of the big Sportback, and they make it look like a nice environment to travel in, so I had high hopes. But the one I sat in — base spec, I think — didn’t feel luxurious, especially for a £70,000 car.
The layout is pleasingly low and driver-focused but the materials just seem hard. Where the CLS and the i3 have stitched and padded tops to the dashboard, especially on the passenger side, the Q8 just has hard surfaces, one piece in speckly grey, the rest just black. The seat leather is less appealing even than the super-tough stuff in my 2009 E220, and the back seat is just World of Black. I think S-line interiors may be a little plusher, with things like Alcantara door panels, but this one really didn’t appeal.
Nor, to be honest, did the Q4. That has a ‘taller’ feel to the dashboard, with three distinct tiers that make it feel more distinctly EV and possibly make the best of the flat floor. But it’s not very appealing, with the only relief from the black being similar sparkly grey stuff on the edges. And the dash angles aggressively outward towards the front passenger, which seems weirdly intrusive when it could have emphasised spaciousness. Again, none of this may matter on the road but it doesn’t make a compelling case over a top-spec Enyaq.
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