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Post by commerdriver on Jan 8, 2020 14:48:04 GMT
Not trying to "abrogate" my responsibility, where we differ is that you believe a hung parliament would have been better, when I believe there is no justification in the last 6 months before the election that that would have been in any way positive. I don't believe that would have been in any way better, especially for Humph or anyone else's business situation.
There certainly is little point in moaning about it now.
As I say the other parties and the sacked Tories had the best chance in years to change the system, and by agreeing on what they wanted, offering a real alternative or at least kicking an election down the road for a time to sort out what they really wanted presenting the electorate with a CHOICE. All they showed was self interest at its worst and a total lack of political maturity. If they wanted to offer a hung parliament then staying there and not giving in to BJ's desire for an election
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Post by commerdriver on Jan 8, 2020 14:50:48 GMT
"I'm afraid the last few years of a government with a wafer thin majority, dependent on alliances, has cruelly exposed how hamstrung and ineffective it is , which is the likely outcome of any government elected on any basis of PR. The electorate got utterly pissed off with politicians faffing about and not achieving anything. "
With our current poor quality of politicians you are quite correct Hof
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Post by Hofmeister on Jan 8, 2020 14:51:36 GMT
Nope. You're not going to abrogate responsibility for your part in electing a catastrophic government with catastrophic policies. All other options were better. The best option of all was a hung Parliament, which was also the most realistically within our reach. You are going to have to get used to it. Whining, stamping your feet and trying to throw blame everywhere else will achieve nothing. Brexit, in some form or other is going to happen. To say a hung parliament, with all the last two years uncertainty which was certainly worse to the countries prospects and future, would be a preferred outcome is an utterly ridiculous position. We are where we are, move on deal with it.
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Post by EspadaIII on Jan 8, 2020 14:52:13 GMT
The desire of people for certainty drove the election result. Labour's fence-sitting was hugely damaging and ruined Al's utopian dream.
Corbyn has been a Leaver all his life; so Labour had the wrong leader at the worst possible time for them and you might say the country (although I perhaps wouldn't for different reasons).
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Jan 8, 2020 15:00:26 GMT
So where is that certainty today? Nowhere to be seen, that's where. The only certainty is that we've put ourselves in a position where the worst possible outcome, no deal, is more likely than before.
I don't disagree with EIII's assessment of Corbyn and Labour. I do disagree with HM the Bear that hung parliaments and coalitions are necessarily damaging. That's utter rubbish.
I shall be moving on and dealing with it by supporting those who will give us the best chance of rejoining. And if that means the Euro and Schengen, then that's even better. I shall also be moving on and dealing with it with my Maltese passport, in order to insure myself and my family against this madness.
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Post by Hofmeister on Jan 8, 2020 15:12:17 GMT
So where is that certainty today? Nowhere to be seen, that's where. The only certainty is that we've put ourselves in a position where the worst possible outcome, no deal, is more likely than before. I don't disagree with EIII's assessment of Corbyn and Labour. I do disagree with HM the Bear that hung parliaments and coalitions are necessarily damaging. That's utter rubbish. I shall be moving on and dealing with it by supporting those who will give us the best chance of rejoining. And if that means the Euro and Schengen, then that's even better. I shall also be moving on and dealing with it with my Maltese passport, in order to insure myself and my family against this madness. You'll have to move to Malta then to get the benefit, because your dream of euros in your pay packet just aint gonna happen while you live here. No party who advocates reentry into Europe including shengen and the euro has a hope in hell of getting elected. Not in your or your kids lifetimes.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Jan 8, 2020 15:18:11 GMT
I did say "if". I'd not rule out rejoining on our existing terms. I realise my views are minority, but with demographic change over the next 20 years, i.e. all the silly old gammon faced sods kicking the bucket, and with a struggling economy and shrinking opportunities, the electorate will gradually move towards my view, even if they don't entirely embrace it.
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Post by commerdriver on Jan 8, 2020 15:20:27 GMT
So where is that certainty today? Nowhere to be seen, that's where. The only certainty is that we've put ourselves in a position where the worst possible outcome, no deal, is more likely than before. I don't disagree with EIII's assessment of Corbyn and Labour. I do disagree with HM the Bear that hung parliaments and coalitions are necessarily damaging. That's utter rubbish. I shall be moving on and dealing with it by supporting those who will give us the best chance of rejoining. And if that means the Euro and Schengen, then that's even better. I shall also be moving on and dealing with it with my Maltese passport, in order to insure myself and my family against this madness. I think there is a lot of water to flow under a lot of bridges in the next 11 months and BJ may regret some things he has said in that time. Hung parliaments with no direction are certainly harmful. A coalition with a clear direction is not necessarily harmful. It does depend on the quality of the politicians and the common directions they want to pursue, in this case, they had their chance and were not capable of taking it. I wish you well in your chosen future I hope that brings you a better future for you and your family.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 16:29:54 GMT
The issue I've got with this form of democracy is you have one party dictating what the future of every single person will be. We are not talking about forming a government or a fixed term. This is something different and I cannot see any going back once out.
As Hof has said once out the UK will not be rejoining I'd add under normal circumstances. The Euro, Schengen, no rebates that Margaret Thatcher and subsequent leaders had negotiated, they are gone. The only way a future UK will accept the joining terms is if things go badly wrong.
Surely, if anything was screaming out for cross party collaboration it is Brexit, to make sure every single person in the UK has a voice. I know, it goes completely against the them and us way of thinking.
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Post by commerdriver on Jan 8, 2020 17:36:17 GMT
Brexit was screaming out for a better form of politics and a better quality of politician than we seem to have in the UK at the moment, sadly we did not have them in any volume or in any place if influence. In my view we won't get better politicians until we get rid of the selfishness which is endemic in our society as a whole, which is a whole other challenge
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Post by Hofmeister on Jan 8, 2020 17:46:53 GMT
If we had less selfishness in society, and a better form of politics, there would have been no Brexit referendum and we wouldn't be here.
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Alanović
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Post by Alanović on Jan 9, 2020 15:01:46 GMT
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