Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2016 0:32:59 GMT
I wrote this and was going to post it in C4P, but then thought what is the point.? There are some, a few, such as Manatee, Smokie and Zippy who are capable of discussing it, but by far the majority wouldn't even understand it, never mind be able to add anything. So for what little it's worth I postit here...
"The Remain camp relied on economic experts, and one they often quoted was IMF. Today it is reported:
The International Monetary Fund’s top staff misled ....................................... in the history of the Bretton Woods institutions."
Absolutely. But honestly, of anybody in the public eye, of anybody in the media and of any 'experts', on *either* side, did *ANY* of them behave well?
Clowns, self-serving clowns at that, every one of them.
I have never seen, or imagined, such an immature, ill-informed, self-serving bunch of dishonest bullshit on any subject, never mind on something this important for the future of the nation. On either side the entire campaign was more crap than a crap thing on a crap day having a very crap moment.
So headlines, politicians, he said/you said, mine is bigger than yours, and all the rest of the bollocks to one side, what do *you* think?
All this shit about "I voted for the good of the country"!! By *WHAT* metric? It can't be economically, because most of you don't understand it. So was it socially? Was it because you've just watched too many Hovis adverts?
Undoubtedly there are some very intelligent, very well informed people who think out is better. Let us hope that they are right. I genuinely pray that they are right. Because it'll be crap if they are not.
I am a business consultant, of one kind or another. I am supposed to understand this business economy shit. So, for however much, or however little, that is worth;
From an economic point of view it seems to me that this will be bad for the UK overall. It will be restrictive, and a burden. I think the remain side have massively over stated the potential impacts of leaving, but they will exist. The leave side have either ignored the whole question or at best said it won't be worse.
Economically I can see no conceivable advantage from this, however you look at it. It will either be the same or worse. I expect it to be worse. Economically it seems clear that if this is something that matters to you then to vote leave makes no sense.
Socially/Emotionally some people voted to leave. There's no real argument to this, or against this. Its something you think is important or its not. Its something that you think country based agreements add to or detract from.
Its at the level of Dog and his fear of "brown people in London". There's no real factual argument, its just a phobia. Its real, its just not reasonable.
People are full of shite about how we can have non-EU agreements; well of course we can, and will. But how is that different to an EU agreement other than in name? I mean seriously.
For example, there is no significant agreement of an EU type of thing between the US and China. Yet, the agreement between Apple and *all* of its suppliers is more restrictive and more dictatorial than anything that the EU has ever had.
I quite get what the remain people want. Quite honestly I would like that as well. I just don't think it is possible at an acceptable cost.
Ultimately, nobody knows, it will take years to know, economically it makes sense to be in and for apocryphal "British Empire" type reasons voting out seems appropriate but probably isn't.
I will do well either way, I'd just like the country to do well also. It just seems like a wasted opportunity to me, and I have never seen any situation where closed mindedness and bigotry led to more success than open mindedness and negotiation.
So, believe and support what you wish. That's kind of the point of a democracy. But most of you should not try to justify your vote, because you don't really understand the issue well enough to do so, its all too difficult for you, and your justification just makes you look a bit silly.
Just state your belief and leave it at that. Its the best you can do. You have voted for the UK you want. Its not a UK that I want, but that's not to say that you are "wrong". We haven't even defined the metrics by which we could measure right or wrong.
If there is a rock to be thrown it is that the remain people already had their solution, where as the leave people needed to develop a solution and haven't.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hofmeister on Jul 30, 2016 19:17:00 GMT
I'm depressed. And ashamed. By and of my fellow Brit. I can understand the protest angle, but the majority voted because they don't want immigrants. And at the end of the day they wont get "control" over laws, or immigration, they will get none of the the things they voted for because they were never on offer. The country is an infinitely better place to be since we have been in Europe.
Most of all I am ashamed of the naked ignorant racism. God I hope they are the first to suffer if it all goes tits up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 21:09:49 GMT
I was very much amazed and surprised at the number of friends who voted Leave. They are almost all, to a man and woman, middle class, affluent, professional people who should have been able to see that there was no plan if we voted leave. Whilst there was no arguments, we have lots of discussion with the most sensible comment coming from a Remain supporter who explained through the prism of the car manufacturing sector why we should not lease, despite the problems with the EU. That swayed me to vote Remain. Everyone else could not find any sound reason for leaving other than gut feeling. I'm not sure in our community it was a racism thing, but I do think it was a case of being freed from the shackles of an 'evil empire'. The problem for me is that there was no alternative offered that made much sense.
The campaign was very poorly fought by the Remain side and Cameron was a huge disappointment as as Osborne. So far, I am not seeing the effects in my business (property management and valuation), but clearly the pound is much lower and I do have concerns that it will take a generation to understand the effects of the decision. By which time it will be too late for me to do anything to protect my children from the fallout.
I can see the idea of a trade body of independent English speaking nations (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India) working, but if we are trying to be green and reduce CO2 emissions, it makes far more sense to trade with our immediate neighbours than with a country 12,000 miles away.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 0:01:11 GMT
>>I'm depressed. And ashamed. By and of my fellow Brit
Ditto.
The very few Leave voters here tend to keep a bit quiet about it. They are not appreciated by the remain voters. Quite how you can be living abroad and vote Leave is beyond me. But, as you say, the fear and resentment of immigrants seems by far and away the greatest motivator.
I think one problem these bigots have is that the non-bigoted prefer to have nothing to do with them. Consequently they spend their lives with and surrounded by other bigots. I think this tends to make them believe that they are normal and their views socially acceptable.
Consider some of the appalling examples in C4P. Their views are awful, but they seem to quite genuinely feel that their views are right and acceptable. I think that's the bit that worries me most of all.
I once had some contact with the KKK in the States; reprehensible people for sure, but they fundamentally believe that their views are reasonable. That has to be related to some kind of group reinforcement. I certainly don't believe anybody is born racist.
However, as Espada says, Remain ran the most ridiculous and appalling campaign. I had previously been an admirer of Cameron but that was a quite shiocking piece of incompetence and mismanagement.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 8:21:11 GMT
>> Consider some of the appalling examples in C4P. Their views are awful, but they seem to quite genuinely feel that their views are right and acceptable. I think that's the bit that worries me most of all. I frequent the aviation forum PPRune. I'n not a spotter nor in the business but simply interested. However there are times when I despair. Forget the non-aviation threads in which the most racist or Marxist rubbish is spouted (one guy genuinely believes that North Korea is a force for good in the world...), but even on threads related to important aviation matters, people are flamed, shouted down, called all sorts of names. Quite incredible that they say things that would get them a bloody nose if said face to face. Can we go back to 1982? You knew where you stood then, whether you like Maggie and Ronnie or not. |
|
Avant
Full Member
Posts: 691 
|
Post by Avant on Jul 31, 2016 21:17:13 GMT
Strongly agree with you all above. The HJ forum is generally pretty polite at the moment, touch wood - but it was surprising how many of the sensible people on there were strongly for Brexit.
I firmly believe that David Cameron's big mistake was to allow the referendum in the first place(and indeed as you say following that up with a very weak Remain campaign). I don't claim to understand all the issues, but at least I read the Times every day and try to keep informed. Putting it crudely, a great many old farts of my generation took a gamble with the next generations' future. Perhaps by calling ourselves GOF we underestimate ourselves!
My late father was a naval commander who fought in WW2, and in 1975 he said it was against all his instincts (understandably, as he was born in 1906,in the days of Empire), but he was voting to stay in what was then the Common Market, in the hope that my generation would be protected from any more war in Europe. That may be less of an issue this time round, but there are so many other risks and uncertainties that i would have hoped my children's and grandchildren's generations could have been spared.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 5:12:15 GMT
This may be a generalisation but wars are fought over a very small number of issues. More recently they have been ideological, but going back 2,000 years or more, it is about gaining control over land and therefore wealth. However if you can arrange you affairs and those of your neighbours that trade is easy so that everyone has the opportunity to be wealth creators, the reason for war disappears. The Common Market was created with those thoughts in mind (so I understand) and has been remarkably successful, given the number of people who lost their lives during wars between 1066 and 1945 (in western Europe) and the number thereafter (nil).
Once you have successful trade with your neighbours and the population sees average wealth growing, the ideologues tend not to gain power, so further reinforcing the point. WW2 may not have happened if The Treaty of Versailles was less harsh economically on the Germans.
However, The EU has become a monolith that has itself has caused the rise of right wing nationalism and left wing loonyism. It needs to take a long hard look at itself, or it will be the catalyst for its its own self-destruction. I do not like the EU, but the alternative is far worse - hence I voted remain.
|
|
Avant
Full Member
Posts: 691
|
Post by Avant on Aug 1, 2016 17:29:17 GMT
You're right - the EU is its own worst enemy in too many ways. Clearly standardisation is helpful in many areas, such as company law in which I lectured and still am an examiner. But, for example, 27,000 words in the Directive on the import of caramel and caramel products......? There's very little consideration of the views of ultimate consumers, which I suppose is why so many of them voted Leave.
I agree about Versailles - what I'm never sure about is - would the same thing have happened if Hitler hadn't existed? Is it down to one all-too-charismatic man, or would someone else have filled that role, fuelled by the economic and other problems that Germany faced at the time? It strikes me that Russia - almost an ally of the West after the understanding between Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev, and then post-USSR under Boris Yeltsin - has gone the way it has largely because of the personality of Vladimir Putin.
Talking of 'own worst enemy' I'm reminded of the alleged conversation between Clement Attlee and Ernie Bevin: Attlee "The trouble with Herbert (Morrison) is that he's his own worst enemy." Bevin: "Not while I'm alive he ain't."
|
|
WDB
Full Member
Posts: 7,427
|
Post by WDB on Aug 8, 2016 6:27:53 GMT
You're right - the EU is its own worst enemy in too many ways. Clearly standardisation is helpful in many areas, such as company law in which I lectured and still am an examiner. But, for example, 27,000 words in the Directive on the import of caramel and caramel products......? It's usually cited as cabbage, rather than caramel - but (unless you know something I don't, Avant) it's a myth. It began as 2,000 or so words in the wartime USA over the distribution of cabbage seed and has been adapted and amplified (ten times!) by anti-'big government' campaigners ever since. Trouble is, enough people want to believe these things for them to gain currency unchallenged. |
|
Avant
Full Member
Posts: 691
|
Post by Avant on Aug 9, 2016 19:23:55 GMT
Googling it, I can see that it's got distorted over time! But the point is still there to be made. One of the links on Google was to:
COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 231/2012
of 9 March 2012
laying down specifications for food additives listed in Annexes II and III to Regulation (EC) No 1333/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council
That runs to just over 3,000 words, and judging by the number of pages of the Annexes, which describe each food additive, it probably goes to 100,000 words or so.
There are a lot of people who supported the Common Market who draw the line at the over-regulated EU. I didn't vote to leave, but I can see what led many thinking people - not just the reactionaries - to do so.
|
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Aug 10, 2016 15:47:32 GMT
Might as well join in the discussion. Did anyone see the programme on BBC2 a few nights ago? There were people in Sunderland who'd voted to leave citing migrants... but there's hardly any in the north east. Stupid or what. And they just won't get that future investment at Nissan at Sunderland will be at risk of going to somewhere else in Europe where Renault-Nissan have a plant: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37024707So Sunderland might not be able to bid on equal footing because we won't even know what Brexit will mean. Idiots. This I posted on t'other place and I think it got deleted/squashed quite quickly. But someone on there does training courses (you can guess who) that cover compliance to an EU directive but we call it Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (DCPC). So presumably after Brexit EU directive 2003/59 no longer applies and therefore you don't need this training? Doh.  And with Brexit looming you might think no point in doing any of the training now. Personally I'm still angry at the stupidity and selfishness of some. We are better off in the EU for sure. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2016 19:50:19 GMT
I see that Hammond has promised to maintain funding to farmers, businesses and organisations that will lose EU grants after Brexit. It doesn't really address a rather significant problem though.
I worked at a European scientific establishment for quite a few years and I witnessed at first hand what can be achieved when you pull the best brains in their particular field from all over Europe into one place. Although most of the collaboration projects in Europe are funded by individual member states, and not by the EU, they primarily came about because of club membership. I don't think that our scientific community will become outcasts but I do think that the prospects of the UK being considered as a base for any future projects is now pretty close to zero.
|
|
|
|
Post by Humph on Aug 13, 2016 20:05:34 GMT
Hi Kevin - Good to see you here, welcome.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hofmeister on Aug 13, 2016 21:23:47 GMT
I see that Hammond has promised to maintain funding to farmers, businesses and organisations that will lose EU grants after Brexit. It doesn't really address a rather significant problem though. I worked at a European scientific establishment for quite a few years and I witnessed at first hand what can be achieved when you pull the best brains in their particular field from all over Europe into one place. Although most of the collaboration projects in Europe are funded by individual member states, and not by the EU, they primarily came about because of club membership. I don't think that our scientific community will become outcasts but I do think that the prospects of the UK being considered as a base for any future projects is now pretty close to zero. Thats a just a small example of the good side of globalisation. Research, advancements, achievements are so damn expensive and wide ranging now, that one country simply cant hope to be there or therabouts, You need to be part of a greater whole, and we wont be. Globalisation of course has its bad parts, Specially when driven at a corporate level, and to control it you need to be part of a greater force. And we wont be. |
|
WDB
Full Member
Posts: 7,427
|
Post by WDB on Aug 31, 2016 20:11:20 GMT
I downloaded this today and played it in the car on the way home. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07qbcb6It's an explanation by former Cabinet Secretary Gus O'Donnell of the task faced by the Leavocrats, the Whitehall specialists who will (may) have to extricate the UK from its enmeshment with the EU. It's worth a second listen, but what's stuck with me from the first is a fabulously simplistic assessment by John Redwood of the negotiation strategy. According to him, we state what we want on trade relationships, and we'll get it; then we explain that we won't negotiate on control of borders, and we'll get that too. No inkling that the two issues might be - now, what's the word? - ah, yes, inextricable. And he's supposed to be one of the Leavers' best brains. |
|
And with Brexit looming you might think no point in doing any of the training now.
