Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 0:18:26 GMT
A serious question really.
People can argue soccer teams, car manufacturers, breweries, etc. etc but as soon as politics gets involved, it gets nasty. On line.
Alanovic and WdB are quite obviously commies, but I'm sure we could talk about politics over a beer, even argue about politics [and go for a kebab after], without it getting nasty.
So why does it always get nasty online? I mean, really nasty. I have never seen an online discussion about politics not get nasty. Yet, for example, at school / college / uni we used to have classes specifically focussed on debating political and religious differences. It got heated, often very heated, but it never got spiteful and nasty.
Is it just because we do not have to face any consequences of our online behaviour? Because "Punch over IP" is not yet a product?
In the early 80s Digital Equipment ran the Easynet with approximately 62,100 computers [nodes] connected to a single network. I ran some of them [Sys$manager - not the best paid work I've ever done, but definitely just about the most fun you can have with computers; we were hackers before it was cool]. Trivial by today's connected standards, but pretty significant in its day.
Digital had discussion forums (VAXNotes) and it was just the bloody same. Politics got vicious.
I guess Zero and Kevin could probably tell similar stories about Ibbum.
So, why do discussions about politics get nastier and more personal, the less personal contact is actually involved?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 30, 2016 7:21:22 GMT
Because politics matters, but the degree of political literacy - and of the numerical ability to put numbers in context - is alarmingly low. This makes people susceptible to rabble-rousers, who give them something to get angry about; at the 2015 election it was the 'benefit scroungers', then of course we got 'uncontrolled immigration'.
So you have, to put it crudely, angry, stupid people. Living and working where most of us do, we're sheltered from the worst of this in person, but the Internet brings a whole lot more into play, while simultaneously removing the inhibitions that moderate what most of us would say in person.
I think politics is in the intersection of the two Venn ovals: ill-informed passion and Internet disinhibition. But I don't think it's the only subject where discussions get ugly. I've frequented photographic forums where the adherents of the Nikon and Canon systems were far more concerned with putting each other's brands down than with sharing any useful information. And you can probably think of a place where making gentle fun of an underachieving car maker is as wise as poking an overweight crocodile with a stick. I wonder if there's a cake baking forum where the respective adherents of Kenwood and Kitchenaid mixers can flame each other out.
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Post by Hofmeister on Aug 30, 2016 8:18:36 GMT
A serious question really. People can argue soccer teams, car manufacturers, breweries, etc. etc but as soon as politics gets involved, it gets nasty. On line. So, why do discussions about politics get nastier and more personal, the less personal contact is actually involved? Its not specifically politics, It can be anything, Race, Religion are far worse, Football forums get nasty, as nasty or worse than any political argument. Politics does however have the unique catalyst that you are either A or B. There is no c to z to dilute the range of stances, opinions or number of disciples. Why nasty on line? You hit on it. Lack of consequences. If I insult all of you and none of you ever speak to me again, its of no significance and wont affect my life in any way. If I belittle you or put you down, you cant punch me or physically threaten me. Those who would be normally too scared or weedy to pipe up in a pub, will happily become puffed up brave keyboard warriors. None of us are who we appear to be on-line, indeed some of us invent and inhabit several persona. Nothing typed on line has any context, nor is it backed up with any physical feedback or body language, so offence is easily taken. An additional issue is that the less erudite and literate, unable to compete in the amusing witty put down or sarcasm, resort to nastiness. And in Onecebigbutnowgettingmuchsmaller Blue, we never really did internal general chat fora, we had technical ones of course, which by and large we friendly but universally useless. Its not politics, its the medium. So, why do you get nasty and personal (and you cant deny you do) on C4P? To explain that may answer your question. And yes, I did as well. Because I could.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 11:08:00 GMT
Try PpRuNe. The arguments over whether Airbus or Boeing are better aircraft to fly are huge. Bonkers. As with other topics there are people who simply go for it, flaming others down from day one. Others try to be more conciliatory, but the common denominator is the lack of physical response. You can abuse anyone behind the avatar of a stupid name on an internet forum. Do it face to face and your face will be punched out.
Bizarrely, try looking at a conversation between a Jew and and Moslem about the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Both know it could easily lead to physical violence, so the discussion is measured and careful, trying to understand each sides position, carefully putting the other side right on matters of fact and generally agreeing to disagree in a polite manner. Watch the same conversation between a Jew and and Jeremy Corbyn supporter (usually a young, white, middle class, university educated person who has not had a proper job). The Jew will act the same. The JC supporter will be vile, intemperate, accusing the Jew of personally killing millions of Arabs, ignoring all attempts to be reasonable and measured. And yet they have no involvement in the conflict.
This was witnessed in Manchester two summers ago at the height of the latest Gaza conflict. A shop selling Israeli made cosmetics was hounded daily for several seeks. Tens of Palestinian supporters gathered outside the shop to protest and force the shop to close down, even though the shop is a UK business owed by a British person. What was interesting was the counter demonstration organised by local Jews. They tried to make conversation with the protesters. The only ones they could have anything like a sensible conversation were the Moslems. The whites simply spat at the Jews and were eventually arrested (and in some cases jailed). The whole affair created better links between the local Jews and Moslems - much to the Corbynista's disgust.
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Post by tyrednexited on Aug 30, 2016 11:50:19 GMT
....we could have a long philosophical/psychological (and even acrimonious, if you want) debate on whether one's real character was being displayed face-to-face, or as a keyboard warrior......
I have my own theories, so that's me out...........
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Post by Hofmeister on Aug 30, 2016 12:00:02 GMT
....we could have a long philosophical/psychological (and even acrimonious, if you want) debate on whether one's real character was being displayed face-to-face, or as a keyboard warrior...... I have my own theories, so that's me out........... Who? the real you or the online you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 12:30:05 GMT
....we could have a long philosophical/psychological (and even acrimonious, if you want) debate on whether one's real character was being displayed face-to-face, or as a keyboard warrior...... I have my own theories, so that's me out........... Who? the real you or the online you?
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Post by tyrednexited on Aug 30, 2016 12:45:48 GMT
Who? the real you or the online you? ...just a minute, I'll ask.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 13:54:36 GMT
A serious question really. . . So, why do discussions about politics get nastier and more personal, the less personal contact is actually involved? . . why do you get nasty and personal (and you cant deny you do) on C4P? To explain that may answer your question. And yes, I did as well. Because I could. Well, I guess I should have seen that question coming. Sometimes its entirely my fault and related to my own frustrations. Often driven by some particularly difficult or troublesome project. Its a failing, I know. It doesn't happen often, and I'm usually pretty good at apologising sincerely when I've picked on the wrong person. But it certainly happens more than it should. Mostly though it is snide people that get to me. I believe that I am very rarely the first to be nasty. I quite accept that I over react, but I am rarely first. I'd say never, but you'll only go and check! People constantly sniping with mean little comments do eventually get to me. My reaction is extreme when I already have an issue with them that I'm sitting on - racist, bigotted, lying, etc. etc. So if I am already arguing with, for example, a racist. If they are saying racist things. Then I have absolutely no regard for them, and unfortunately therefore no sense of restraint. For example, dealing with you. We can get angry with each other, very, and even have a go at each other. But I don't think we've stepped over that line into nastiness. Essentially because wrong as you can be, despite my efforts to help you learn, you are basically a decent bloke. So its just an argument, such as one would have in a pub. If I have a defence, and I accept that it isn't much of one, my personality and behaviour in real life is no different to on line. If I was in a pub, and a liar, racist, or bigot came in and started pushing, I would get personal and unpleasant. No different on line. On the other hand, if a decent bloke came in the pub and we started arguing about something decent that we disagreed on, we'd probably just argue all night while buying each other drinks.
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Post by Hofmeister on Aug 30, 2016 21:28:45 GMT
. . why do you get nasty and personal (and you cant deny you do) on C4P? To explain that may answer your question. And yes, I did as well. Because I could. Essentially because wrong as you can be, despite my efforts to help you learn, What an ungrateful git I am.
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