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Post by EspadaIII on Jun 27, 2022 13:16:45 GMT
My blue credentials are fading by the minute.
What an appalling decision by the Supreme Court and most importantly by the women of that court. It sends the USA to the back of the class for being a modern country. There are many more supposedly conservative countries where abortion is restricted but at least permitted under certain reasonable circumstances such as rape, incest or health of the mother. But these right wing lunatics want to ban abortion completely across the whole of the USA. And for most of them it is nothing to do with religion but power.
I feel sick. Not that I am pro-abortion under all circumstances as I don't think it should be used simply as another form of birth control; people should take responsibility for their actions; but particularly in the USA, where this decision will force the least able to look after children for reasons of inaccessible health care, or poverty, to have those children anyway, this is kicking a woman when she is down and at her most vulnerable.
If ever there were reasons NOT to have a written constitution, this and the 'right to bear arms' are at the top... I have never understood why political elections or appointments for positions of judges and District Attorneys is considered sensible. The law should be blind to partiality but clearly in the US it is not.
Although some of you may not appreciate it, we live in the best country in the world. It is by no means perfect but things we take for granted as being our right are simply not available in many other western democratic countries.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2022 14:03:46 GMT
Well. of course I agree with your stance on the issue in the thread name here. But you've gone a bit deeper into things after that.
Those rights you refer to at the end of your post are under direct threat here, and in fact many things we once took for granted have already been removed, thanks to the current governing party over the last 12 years. Rights to free protest, EU freedom of movement, and so on. ECHR, Churchill, ring any (alarm) bells?
Perhaps people shouldn't elect performative right-wing governments with nothing to offer but campaign slogans "because we've had enough of the liberal left bleeding heart woke elite", then these things wouldn't happen.
If the message doesn't get through at the next election and we don't revert to a pragmatic, sensible government, I will be accelerating my plans to deploy my second passport and begin whatever's left of my life elsewhere. I never wanted that passport, I never thought I'd need another one, I have always loved this country and what it stood for, but I'm starting to lose that.
I don't know why you feel your final comment/paragraph about "some of you" is necessary to be honest EIII, I've always appreciated what a blessed place I was fortunate enough to have been born in, but have always been of the mind that by pointing out and seeking to change its imperfections, we can make it even better. But for some reason that is taken as being "unpatriotic" or "you hate your country", when in fact it's the diametric opposite. Those who are blind to its failings, wrap themselves in our flag and scream invective at anyone who dissents are the proper enemies of our great nation. I do honestly resent comments like "Although some of you may not appreciate it, we live in the best country in the world". It's in the same bracket as a comment a former friend made to me when we were discussing the Referendum result. He told me he'd happily help me pack my bags if I didn't like it. I expect I'm one of the "some of you" you are talking about here, and I'd have thought better of someone with your background than to get involved in "Othering" people. Perhaps you'd care to withdraw that sentiment. Perhaps I'm reading to much into it, and if you'd like to justify the comment then perhaps that would help. But as it is written I am uncomfortable with your sentiment.
"The best country in the world" wouldn't be one making itself an absolute laughing stock and pariah on the world stage, threatening to break international law and renege on its recently signed treaty commitments - particularly when that treaty was drawn up at our behest. It wouldn't be rounding up some of the most vulnerable people in the world, subjecting them to utter torment, tying them up and trying to put them on planes to an uncaring, dangerous dictatorship to be "processed". It wouldn't have deported its own citizens, rightfully here, "back to where they came from", just because some paper records had been chucked out a few years ago and people had never though they were going to need recourse to them in their lifetime, because they had been told they wouldn't.
What I "appreciate" is that our country should be a leading light for the free world, but as with the USA it is sliding into very murky political territory, and simply puffing out our chests and proclaiming ourselves "the best" is childish and unproductive.
But yeah. Roe v Wade. I expect that's what Priti Patel's 2 favourite options are for sending people back to France now that the "activist lefty lawyers" have seen to it that the law of the land applies equally to our government and its agents as it does to the rest of us.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Jun 28, 2022 7:01:06 GMT
Yes, it’s a dreadful development. Abortion is a distasteful and distressing procedure, absolutely not for every day, but it is a necessary last resort. And crucially, it is every woman’s right to decide what goes into and comes out of her own body. Remember that 85 percent of Americans think so too.
I don’t think the fact of a constitution is the problem. One here could have prevented some of the abuses we’ve seen since 2016, and would protect us now from a governing party that is trying to remove independent safeguards wherever it finds them. (The Telegraph probably doesn’t mention that.) The problem in the US is the lifelong appointment of Supreme Court justices and the politicisation of the judiciary, which means that people become and remain judges because of their political views, not their competence and impartiality. That’s a problem when they’re deciding whether the ‘liberty’ enshrined in a document drafted in the 1770s now applies to ‘men’ who are non-white or female. But the US constitution was robust enough to deal with Trump’s attempted coup in 2021.
And, for the UK, Vić is absolutely right. We who are fortunate enough to live here have a duty to protect it from those who would dismantle the freedoms we have, which have taken centuries to secure. Anyone who didn’t shudder the other day, on hearing Johnson’s musings on how many prime ministerial terms he feels entitled to, might do well to look at the likes of Orban or, yes, Putin. It might also be a good moment to reconsider the electoral system that installed our own would-be autocrat on a popular vote of barely 40 percent.
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Post by EspadaIII on Jun 28, 2022 11:07:54 GMT
I wasn't making a political point. More of case that from the perspective of those whose family came here seeking sanctuary compared to those who see themselves as having lived here for so long they have no other identity other than ;British', there seems to be a greater level of 'patriotism'. The country is by no means perfect and patriotism doesn't mean glossing over problems, and it is clear that we have many, some of which are exacerbated by the current Government. But it does mean having pride generally in the country. And that I do.
Being so close to Israel which is more of a melting pot than the USA was in the century following the Civil War, I meet people from all around the world who have emigrated there. After a few minutes of conversation they are amazed at just how free we are in the UK to be what we want to be. That is why we have the incredibly strong arguments between the 'establishment and the Trans supporters. It is the fine balance between non-discrimination and fairness that barely exists in other countries. Only in a country that is free can those arguments exist. It took a lot of hard work by people prepared to put their lives or careers at risk to get to where we are, and of that I am proud.
Conversely, I do find things like the Olympics odd. Someone who is the fastest, highest, strongest is not a reflection of country but personal effort. Yes, it is nice to say that a person is British who won that Gold Medal but if they were from another country with similar help in training they would still win. I am proud of the acheivements of our sporting heroes, but it is an accident of birth or immigration that makes them British. It is no accident that some of them or their parents chose to come here; we are the best country in the world....otherwise why come? and I can now think of two good reasons not to want to live in the USA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2022 11:37:32 GMT
Not making a political point, by starting out saying in the very first breath "my blue credentials are fading"? I'm sorrry if I misread you, but that sounds like the opening to a very political point.
Well here we go, EIII. Your "free we are in the UK to be what we want to be" - depends on who you are and in which part of it you live. These are th epoepl who giovern us today...doesn't make for comfortable reading...
I suspect a woman in Northern Ireland with an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy might be willing to debate the point with you.
If you don't like the situation as it's evolving in the USA, you must be incandescent about similar things happening in your country.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, EIII. Pride is a very dangerous thing. As I said, I do appreciate that we are fortunate to have been born in the most liberal era in one of the most liberal and tolerant countires in the world. That's what's worth defending, not notions of "patriotism" or "pride". As you point out it was hard earned and hard won.
I do love this country, it has afforded me a very comfortable and enjoyable life. I wish for that to remain the case, for everyone here of every stripe. I fear that this concept is being eroded by a government under cover of its alleged "Patriotism" and "Pride". Do I not like that, as the man said. I can love my country but despise the way it is being governed and run, in fact it's practically a duty, if you do love your country, to call out those who seek to diminish it.
Not sure what you're trying to get across by saying "It is no accident that some of them or their parents chose to come here; we are the best country in the world....otherwise why come?" - does nobody ever migrate and settle in any other country than the UK?
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