Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779 
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 18:05:49 GMT
Without lockdown the estimates are upwards of 250,000 deaths. The deaths as is will rocket and by the weekend we will probably have over 5000 total. And the real total is more.
Not much else we can do is there apart from mostly stay in.
With babies, 13 year olds, and other young people dying then we can't be blasé about this can we.
What do people think of that GP surgery in south Wales asking people to sign do not perform CPR forms.... I think the surgery was right to raise this.
|
|
WDB
Full Member
Posts: 7,427
|
Post by WDB on Apr 2, 2020 18:26:44 GMT
With babies, 13 year olds, and other young people dying... They're the outliers I referred to. Young and healthy people die every day in accidents. We could prevent a lot of those by shutting down the economy, but does that mean we should? As for 250,000 deaths, the question should be not 'how many?' but 'how many more?' And suppose we really do prevent - postpone - 250,000 deaths but it costs £1trn to do so, that's £4m a head, so maybe £400,000 a year if the average extension is ten years. NICE's benchmark amount per year gained by a treatment is £30,000. That's not to say we shouldn't decide to do this - T&E's point about the danger of exceeding care capacity is a valid one - but we shouldn't assume it's the only course of action we can take. |
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 19:12:44 GMT
But that 13 year old didn't die in an accident. How many younger, fit people do we allow to die?
Take it one step further and could be just euthanise anyone with it and cremate them immediately?
So the solution should be kill the frail who get this and even some of the younger ones? WDB are you volunteering to be euthanised in case you pass it on to someone?
|
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 19:16:44 GMT
So the original plan everywhere was to trace anyone in contact with the virus and put them in quarantine. But you can't lock down that many in safe places or keep tracing and there's a risk they do pass it on. So how about in future if this happened again. 1. Anyone with it is killed and cremated. 2. Anyone they come into contact with is killed and cremated. Should be quick to contain if we did that don't you think? And there's less risk of NHS staff catching it, getting ill, passing it on etc. Maybe we'd only have to euthanise say 10,000. Maybe that's what China's really done!  |
|
|
|
Post by tyrednexited on Apr 2, 2020 19:16:59 GMT
Soylent green, anyone?  |
|
WDB
Full Member
Posts: 7,427
|
Post by WDB on Apr 2, 2020 20:08:27 GMT
But that 13 year old didn't die in an accident. How many younger, fit people do we allow to die? Take it one step further and could be just euthanise anyone with it and cremate them immediately? So the solution should be kill the frail who get this and even some of the younger ones? WDB are you volunteering to be euthanised in case you pass it on to someone? Did you smoke something you found while clearing out the shed, Rob? 🤔 Not sure if you’re missing my point on purpose, but outliers are just that: exceptional cases that do not reflect the general pattern. In that sense, the 13-year-old did die in an accident: an unfortunate combination of circumstances that will not be replicated for very many similarly young, healthy people. You don’t make good plans by extrapolating from the extreme cases; you do it by looking at what’s typical and then decide how far from that mean you can afford to go to achieve a satisfactory outcome for the population as a whole. |
|
|
|
Post by Hofmeister on Apr 2, 2020 20:43:22 GMT
What do people think of that GP surgery in south Wales asking people to sign do not perform CPR forms.... I think the surgery was right to raise this. When my mother went into hospital, the DNR came up and was agreed. There was no coronavirus around then. With the aged or at risk its BAU in hospital admission world. |
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 20:50:19 GMT
So WDB you'd be accepting if a close relative got ill and we just let them die then I suppose?
I thought the 13 year old died from COVID-19. Did they not? What accident were they in then?
|
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 20:51:30 GMT
Z, I think if an elderly patient goes into hospital DNR is automatically asked. What the GP surgery were trying to do was stop any attempt to even get an ambulance for someone unlikely to survive.
|
|
WDB
Full Member
Posts: 7,427
|
Post by WDB on Apr 2, 2020 21:16:00 GMT
So WDB you'd be accepting if a close relative got ill and we just let them die then I suppose? I thought the 13 year old died from COVID-19. Did they not? What accident were they in then? Sorry, Rob, I’m not following your reasoning at all. |
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 21:52:27 GMT
With the current lockdown the projection is 20,000 will die. But many more are going to need hospitalisation. If we didn't have the lockdown than an order of magnitude more will die. Maybe as many as 500,000. So those lives are worthless and not worth trying to stop them ending early? The 13 year old I understood had COVID-19 and had a heart attack from anaesthesia needed to put him on a ventilator. He''d have not died if he did not have CODID-19. That was not an accident. But let us say we are happy for this virus to take lives and get it over with. Are you accepting that a loved one could die if that could be avoided? There is no way the health system can cope without the current lockdown. I do think many of us will have had the virus and the longer we remain in lockdown the better. If one business fails and puts a few dozen out of work for now is that the end of the world? I am sure if someone like Humph had to find another job he'd bounce back and be doing something similar again - not that I wish anything to happen to his business where he's a director.... and probably quite well paid too so he'd not want to stack shelves in a Lidl for too long  |
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 22:21:34 GMT
And there are people who are totally ignorant of what is happening in the world and now stuck where they should not have even gone: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52134590So 4 weeks ago they thought it smart to still go to Argentina and onwards for 3 months. Leave them there until it's all over. They will probably come to little harm. And the many people overseas that could have tried to come back weeks ago but now want to be repatriated. EIII knew when he went to his dad in Israel he could be there for months be but did the right thing in the circumstances. |
|
Rob
Full Member
Posts: 2,779
|
Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2020 23:41:23 GMT
On another track but still related.... If the proverbial hit the fan how long should the average family be able to maintain things before they have problems financially?
I'd hope most could survive a month or more (including still paying mortgage). But what about paying all bills? 6 months? 6 years? Until their pension?
|
|
|
|
Post by dixinormus on Apr 3, 2020 2:11:48 GMT
On the upside, imagine how much lower the road death toll has been over the past couple of weeks?!
|
|
|
|
Post by EspadaIII on Apr 3, 2020 3:29:22 GMT
You're all right. The lockdown is affecting the economy and the alternative is to let the virus rum rampant killing easily millions, both of and because of it. That will also affect the economy. If you kill a lot of old and infirm, who do the hordes of care workers work for?
Lockdown for months will kill the economy. But a few weeks will mean we experience temporary pain. Some businesses, which perhaps were poorly performing anyway will cease but if their service is required a more efficient business will pick it up. This is like a forest fire; some destruction aids new growth. At least I am hopeful this will be the case.
|
|
