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Post by EspadaIII on Aug 13, 2024 12:35:18 GMT
If you go all electric and waterless, what method will you use?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 13, 2024 12:43:31 GMT
The pipes were buried in the concrete floor and power flushing revealed them to be in an advanced state of deterioration. They would have failed soon enough if we’d gone on using them with a gas system.
As for what comes next, I’m chewing over various forms of hybrid solution. Electric radiators would be easy but would need a lot of battery storage to make them affordable to run. Air-to-air heat pumps would be easy to install and cheap to run but I’m concerned about noise. I’m thinking a big f-off storage heater in the hall would provide a useful base level of heat for the entire ground floor and stairs (the house is almost a cube and this would be close to the centre of it) and augmenting that with battery-fed devices in the rooms, that would then have to work much less hard. But expect that idea to change once our installers have offered their revised plan!
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Post by EspadaIII on Aug 13, 2024 13:24:47 GMT
Remind me -- Do you have solar panels?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 13, 2024 13:29:24 GMT
Not yet, but the roof would take 16 of them, about 7kW peak, so they're very much a possibility - not least because the batteries will then be VAT-exempt.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Aug 13, 2024 15:37:14 GMT
How old is the house if the pipes have failed like that?
With the pipework not up to being used for any water fed system then you're going to have to invest in an electric solution with solar and battery storage. Then it's a case of which solution to go for.
Can the pipes downstairs not be replaced? I know the current ones are in concrete but if SOME of them are replaceable then the original solution might work. Then you might only need a few electric sources of heat.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 17, 2024 22:34:10 GMT
Well, if you feel the need, feel free to vent here! Not sure if any of us could be of help, but a few of us have black belts in self defence against corporate BS… 😉 It’s been more the domestic and personal stuff than anything at work — although writing that feels like tempting fate. I’ve documented the plumbing upheaval here, but not the precautionary (we hope) visit from our insurer’s assessor in case the water leak has wrecked the concrete. (Unlikely, but avoids the ‘when did you know?’ question if there is a problem.) Add to that the mystery shoulder impingement that’s wrecked my cricket season, kept me off the bike and now returned with a vengeance to the point of affecting my sleep, plus the whole emptying-nest thing and you’ll get to why the bent bumper was a bit less welcome even than a bent bumper usually is. Anyway, I feel I’m on the way to solving the electrification problem, and getting some surprisingly enthusiastic backing from MrsB1. In a few months we could well have the more modern looking, feeling and working house that the electric mobility machines deserve to sit outside. Staying positive, mostly.
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Post by Humph on Aug 18, 2024 5:36:51 GMT
Good, sounds like you’re finding a route through it all. I have a number of old injuries that plague me. Many of them ironically as a result of the pursuit of fun and adventure, but others have been just part of life’s riches. I spent a lot of time and money on physiotherapists for a while, mainly to little avail, but the one thing that seems to keep me mostly untangled is regular swimming. I don’t even especially enjoy it even now, but it eases the discomfort, keeps me a bit fitter and calms the mind. Might help your shoulder a bit if you chugged up and down a pool on some kind of regular basis.
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Post by EspadaIII on Aug 18, 2024 12:45:29 GMT
We are all reaching the age where minor niggles can become bigger and unresolvable problems if ignored. Hence my decision to have a weekly PR session concentrating on resistance training. Need to get back in the pool more often.
Then there are life's other issues like the house and children..
Glad you are feeling more positive Dubya. A lot of what we suffer mentally is about our perception of how others view us rather than how things really are. We have become a society which is too dependent upon affirmation by others when really it should be a simple self-affirmation that 'I can deal with this; I may be a bit poorer but it doesn't matter, as life will fine afterwards'.
I saw an advert in yesterday's Telegraph about electric boilers. Looked interesting and I can see why you wanted to go in that direction. But maybe the pipes issue has steered you in the right direction without realising.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Aug 18, 2024 17:44:12 GMT
I can see why an electric boiler is tempting being you'd think it's plug and play... but then new rads are needed and then maybe some sort of heat exchange solution would be better.... Then the pipes being no good.... Leaves fewer options.
I think I am right in saying the electric boiler WDB was thinking of does not provide any hot water so you need an electric source for that. Robert Llewellyn already had a source for hot water before he got that boiler and some electric rads too.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 18, 2024 20:18:52 GMT
The ZEB can be used to divert heat into a hot water cylinder but we’d chosen not to configure it that way, our house being at the upper end of its heating capacity anyway. We’d planned a ‘smart’ double-immersion cylinder to sit next to it but we’re now looking at Sunamp Thermino phase-change storage that will store grid and/or PV electricity as heat to release as hot water during the day. It will give us the dual-shower capability that’s handy for overnight guests, and give us somewhere to dump excess summertime PV if we decide to stay below the 3.68kW easy-export limit.
I’ve got some money sums to do, of course, some of which is offsetting one cost against a saving elsewhere and seeing whether we end up any worse off. The radiators, for example, had to be replaced because they were either about to fail or already had. The room devices (I’m favouring far-infrared panels at the moment) will, item for item, cost about the same.
We no longer need a central heat source, but we do need electricity storage, so we can offset the cancelled ZEB against the battery. I want to do PV anyway but the solution is viable without it, given that heating matters most when PV contributes least. The big gain there might be either export revenue or charging the cars in summer for 0p instead of 7p. Given that energy prices will rise again at some point, it makes sense to protect ourselves from that — and increasing overall renewal capacity is just the right thing to do anyway.
Feeling reasonably calm about it now. Where we have decisions to make — IR panels v air-to-air heat pump v electric radiators — nothing is so expensive that we couldn’t tear out and replace one if we hated it. Better to get something in and working and get on with making the house how we really want it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2024 9:33:04 GMT
The pipes were buried in the concrete floor and power flushing revealed them to be in an advanced state of deterioration. They would have failed soon enough if we’d gone on using them with a gas system. As for what comes next, I’m chewing over various forms of hybrid solution. Electric radiators would be easy but would need a lot of battery storage to make them affordable to run. Air-to-air heat pumps would be easy to install and cheap to run but I’m concerned about noise. I’m thinking a big f-off storage heater in the hall would provide a useful base level of heat for the entire ground floor and stairs (the house is almost a cube and this would be close to the centre of it) and augmenting that with battery-fed devices in the rooms, that would then have to work much less hard. But expect that idea to change once our installers have offered their revised plan! This has legitimately terrified me. I think our houses are of a similar vintage, and of similar construction (mine is 1971). My downstairs heating pipes are in concrete too, with parquet flooring over that. I think I'm not going to touch a sodding thing in regards to rads and boiler etc. I'm working on a plan to be selling up in 2 years time to commence Stage 1 of The Great Retirement Plan, so hopefully everything survives that long, so as to make it someone else's problem.
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 19, 2024 10:04:04 GMT
Yes. I now know we had a little warning of this a few years ago. We have a rather attractive modern gas fire in the old fireplace (houses were still getting those in 1971) and I started noticing a persistent whiff of gas in the living room. Nothing wrong with the appliance or its installation, but the engineer found the pressure at the appliance end was lower than the meter end. The gas pipe was laid the same way, in the floor, without lagging to protect it from the concrete. That permits chemical corrosion of the copper, and gas was escaping through the resulting pinprick holes.
That pipe is still there but doesn’t carry gas any more. We had it capped and a new one laid, halfway around the external walls. Water is more benign than gas, especially when it can escape downwards into the foundations rather than up into the room. But power-flushing was just too much for what copper was left.
Our whole system had reached crisis point: radiators failing through internal corrosion, and sludged-up supply pipes — not to mention the failed boiler. Better, I suppose, to have discovered it like this and not through mysterious problems with a new system in a freshly-decorated house. And this way, I get to do something entirely new. Central heating was a mid-20th century improvement on room-by-room fireplaces and, like the internal combustion engine, just became the thing we’re used to. There are cleaner and more controllable options now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2024 10:13:42 GMT
Yes I think ours is approaching that crisis point. Radiators don't give off as much heat any more in some rooms and have some cold spots. I had been thinking about power flushing but now I'm a bit worried about doing that in case it creates more problems than it solves. The worst room is my son's bedroom, it doesn't heat properly in the winter. But he's at University most of the time now...
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Aug 19, 2024 11:38:20 GMT
In two previous 'old' period houses, the pipework was accessible if needed from the cellar for downstairs and under floorboards upstairs. When built there would have been no central heating. Ironically an older house had an advantage there, especially one with cellar space. Current house is about 20ish years old but I do know the pipework is buried away in floor/walls and I wondered about this before WDB's info.
It's irrelevant you wanted to go electric... if you'd have a new gas boiler and pressure cleaned the pipes the same. As would having a heat exchange based system. I wonder how many other houses will find this costly building oversight - lots I guess.
Al, I assume you've checked for air and tried balancing them. Could you now clean out the system with a chemical under normal pressure?
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WDB
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Post by WDB on Aug 19, 2024 11:43:49 GMT
Yes, my house (and Vić’s, built in the same year) probably got a lot of new ideas implemented badly. Pipes in concrete are fine, provided there’s a protective layer between the concrete and the copper. That’s how it’s done now, but it took a generation of doing it wrong to find a better way.
Vić may also have the second problem we found. Modern radiators like a dual-pipe system, one to deliver the hot ‘flow’ water from the boiler and a second to collect the cooler ‘return’ water. Mine was built with a cheapo single circuit, where the last radiator in the system gets water that has already passed through all the others. It was upgrading that that would have required the truly offputting amount of work and disruption.
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